No Catholic worth his salt (or Orthodox, I presume) would say that we can become righteous by our own actions without Christ's abiding Spirit within us. That is the problem with our arguments we have been having. When we say we must become righteous, you (Protestants) automatically assume that we mean ALONE! This is absolutely not the case! God comes into our beings and shares His divine life with us - eternal life enters into us, directing us towards the greater good. Because of Christ's abiding Spirit, we DO become righteous - because of Him - not because anything we do alone. What can we give to God that we have not already been given? Where Protestantism fails here is to claim that this regeneration, this "being born from above" is merely a status. As if God cannot CHANGE or TRANSFORM us!
I honestly do not know if there is any difference between extrinsic justification and imputed righteousness
The difference is manifold. Extrinsic justification means we are only given a new status - there is NO change within our being. We are like a puppet through which God acts upon, while we doing nothing of value. Intrinsic justification means we are indeed raised up to a new level, a supernatural level. We begin to BECOME righteous in God's eyes as a result of His work WITHIN us. Thus, WE can become holy, WE can become pure. Christ doesn't cover a mound of manure and "sneak" into heaven while God holds His nose!
As far as I know, man's cooperation has nothing to do with imputed righteousness.
Sure it does. We are empowered by God's graces to repent, to have faith, hope and love. We are given the ability to love even our enemies. WE! Not God disguised as me. I can love! Scriptures throughout tell of MAN doing "x". That is how Scriptures speak - we understand that MAN is responsible for his actions, but he IS empowered by God to do the good - thus, man cannot brag. Man can only cooperate - he cannot generate good deeds on his own.
Then, God actually makes us righteous after physical death, for the elect.
Ah. No, we become righteous even in this world! We become pleasing in God's eyes through faith. Even today, God abides in us - and we know this when we obey the commandments. Yes, we are given a status, but it is much more. Christ came to heal us and to give life to the fullest, even in this life. Not just a bus ticket to be redeemed 50 years from now! We share in the divine nature even today - but fully after our death.
Regards
That is correct, Jo. The Spirit move sut to do good. But in order for us to lsten to Him, we must be willing, and not compelled, to do so.
Well, not this Protestant, I hope you know by now! :) My disagreement is the idea that man gets any of the credit or any of the glory for what is really God's doing. I know you do not think you are doing anything that is truthfully good, absent God.
What can we give to God that we have not already been given?
Bad free will choices. You see, I do believe in free will, as Harley discussed earlier. :)
Where Protestantism fails here is to claim that this regeneration, this "being born from above" is merely a status. As if God cannot CHANGE or TRANSFORM us!
That's not what we believe. God certainly can and does change and transform us. We just believe it happens a little differently and at different times than you do. BTW, why is it that when Catholics have the status of actually being righteous, that it is not a "status", but when Protestants have the status of being declared righteous, it is a "status"?
FK: "I honestly do not know if there is any difference between extrinsic justification and imputed righteousness."
The difference is manifold. Extrinsic justification means we are only given a new status - there is NO change within our being. We are like a puppet through which God acts upon, while we doing nothing of value. Intrinsic justification means we are indeed raised up to a new level, a supernatural level. ...
Well, that doesn't exactly help me, unless you are saying that imputed righteousness and intrinsic justification are the same thing. :) I'm not the guy who brought up any of this extrinsic/intrinsic stuff! :) I do believe there is a real change in us at the point of regeneration (belief).
FK: "As far as I know, man's cooperation has nothing to do with imputed righteousness."
Sure it does. We are empowered by God's graces to repent, to have faith, hope and love. We are given the ability to love even our enemies. WE! Not God disguised as me. I can love! Scriptures throughout tell of MAN doing "x". That is how Scriptures speak ...
Well, we must have different ideas about what imputed righteousness is. My idea is that the "imputed" part means it has nothing to do with man, or his actions, or his cooperation. It is a covering, and it is a status in a legal sense. We are "declared" righteous by the righteousness of Christ. All of this is made even better later.
Christ came to heal us and to give life to the fullest, even in this life. Not just a bus ticket to be redeemed 50 years from now! We share in the divine nature even today - but fully after our death.
You share in the divine nature? I don't know what that means. I'm also not sure of what the bus ticket analogy is supposed to mean. We believe that God wants us to have full lives. This is what sanctification brings us. What instead do you think we believe?