A driver's license is a conditional privilege, subject to being lost if the conditions are not met. If you think this is the same as eternal life, then you should not call it "eternal life". You should really call it "conditional life". So, if "eternal life" is conditional and subject to change, then you must also believe that eternal damnation is also conditional and can be changed. If the eternally damned do good deeds in hell, can they be let into heaven? No one can ever be eternally damned, because "eternal" means "conditional", right?
But thank you for the verses. Now I see more clearly the tie-in to the Catholic view of assurance. This makes more sense now.
Now why would God tell us to persevere if we can do nothing?
God is commanding/encouraging us to not choose to sin, which we can always do. So, though I might say that I am already saved, for the rest of my life I might choose to sin "X" number of times, or "X" plus 50,000 number of times. If I am of the elect, then I am still saved either way. God is revealing His will that our goal is to never choose sin.
I don't follow this "never was punched in the first place". It happened. You can't deny it. We are regenerated upon Baptism, our sins are remitted. Spiritually, this is a real event. But post-Baptismal sins can undo some of the work of Baptism.
This is directly related to our discussion on what "eternal" means. To me, once a ticket is punched, that's it, the ticket has a hole in it, and it is a permanent hole. Under your system, this hole CAN be filled in again such that the ticket was never punched in the first place. To you, it is not permanent because salvation, once won, can still be lost. A person who loses his salvation is in the same place as someone who never had it at all. To me, this makes as much sense as unringing a bell. Likewise, to you "eternal" is only conditional. It belies the meaning of the word.
When you get sick - then are healed, does that mean you never were sick in the first place? Does that mean you will never get sick again? Really, now. What is so hard about this?
God doesn't promise that we will never get sick again, He promises that those who believe will go to heaven. I know that you have compared our salvific state to that of being sick before, but I don't see the support for it in scripture.
FK: "He guarantees that none of His sheep will ever be lost for good."
This was NEVER an issue between us. I have never said the elect are not guaranteed heaven.
I know you've never said the elect can be lost, but I thought that we disagreed on who the sheep were. I thought you have said that God has delegated the power to men to supersede God's word, and snatch themselves out of God's hands. However, I think you may have used different words. :) But the meaning was clear to me, free will means that anyone can override this scripture. This includes the elect, who will presumably come back later. I expect you to explain to me that in the verse, the correct interpretation of "no one" is "everyone concerning himself". That would be the only thing consistent with my understanding of what you have said.
God doesn't "repair" those who remain in sin. You should know better. The wrath of God consists in leaving men in their sin. LEAVING THEM!
OK, when I said "God promises to fix US", I should have said "God promises to fix His elect". Is that better? :)
So are you saying that God allowed His Son to die to satisfy His own sense of justice? If so, I would consider this a secondary reason for the crucifixion. Love is the primary reason, pure and simple.
Yes, I fully agree.
Then I shouldn't call a driver's licence a "driver's license". To the possesor of the license (or Christ's abiding presence), it grants that person particular abilities as duly noted. As I have noted from Scripture quotes, "eternal life", in John's writings, normally refers to Christ's abiding presence - which is subject to leaving when we sin. This much is clear in many Scripture verses, such as :
"Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, [then] we have confidence in God; and whatsoever we ask, we receive of him because we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he has commanded us. And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And in this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us." 1 John 3:21-24
Once we have achieved heaven, this abiding presence is no longer subject to being lost - and thus, it does become our permanent status. This understanding is much more in line with Scriptures then "well, for the last 20 years, you never had it to begin with..." What a crock. Either you do or you do NOT have abiding presence. It is silly to claim "well, you fell away, so you never had eternal life to begin with".
God is commanding/encouraging us to not choose to sin, which we can always do.
You are missing the point! First, you deny that man can do ANYTHING - then you expect man to choose NOT to sin??? How is this possible? Either God graces man, leading man to be able to choose God - and thus making sense of perseverence, OR God demands that man do something that man cannot do - and injustly condemns said man for not being able to fulfill something he could NEVER do unaided! You can't have it both ways - God does everything/man is responsible!!!
This is directly related to our discussion on what "eternal" means. To me, once a ticket is punched, that's it, the ticket has a hole in it, and it is a permanent hole.
A fine analogy, IF ANYONE ACTUALLY RECEIVED A TICKET! No one does. That's the problem with this analogy. We can NEVER know we will persevere, from our point of view. Thus, there IS NO visible means for man to know we will die in grace.
God doesn't promise that we will never get sick again, He promises that those who believe will go to heaven.
Those WHO PERSEVERE in this belief will go to heaven. God expects man's response to continue throughout his life. If you REALLY believe in something, you make it part of your life, not "Lord, Lord" - and "I never knew you"... Those going to heaven are the ones who believe and put their belief into action. Not the ones who merely talk, talk, talk...
"My little children, let us not love in word neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth." 1 John 3:18
I know you've never said the elect can be lost, but I thought that we disagreed on who the sheep were
Another misinterpretation. The "sheep" are God's COMMUNITY, not individuals. When Christ is talking about His sheep, His flock, He is speaking about His Church, the community of faith. Christ doesn't speak about salvation coming to those who sit down and read the Bible for themselves. God doesn't promise individuals salvation outside of this flock.
OK, when I said "God promises to fix US", I should have said "God promises to fix His elect". Is that better? :) God promises to fix ANYONE who turns to Him. In the end, those who DID turn to God and died in such a state of grace were on God's elect list the whole time. There is no point in trying to put yourself on this list - we just will never know and is presumption. One of the worse sins is religious pride. I see this sin quite clearly in the attitude that "God has saved me and I am going to heaven". The Scriptures are full of verses that talk about God desiring that men turn to Him and He would forgive them of sin. From man's point of view, salvation is available to ALL men.
Regards