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To: kosta50; annalex; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; qua
Well, Kolokotronis already clarified that the Apostles were not there [in the icon], which actually shows that the OT righteous are not given the same grace as Christ's Apostles.

Yes, he did, that was my mistake. I really don't know the level of significance that these icons have for you all, but this one icon is enough to prove that the Apostles had more grace than the OT righteous? I suppose "grace" could be a relative term here, but when I think of Moses, John, and Paul, I think of them all as those who wrote inerrant scripture, they all performed miracles, and all preached God's word, so they all must have been pretty loaded with grace. :)

Another point concerns John the Baptist as one of the OT righteous. I don't know why that is, (unless it is because he is Elijah), but since it helps me now, I'll go with it! :) Anyway, Jesus said, in effect, that (outside of Himself) John the Baptist was the finest man who ever lived. That would put him ahead of the Apostles and appear to indicate more grace.

We cannot simply say that God bestowed His grace on the Jews and the OT righteous and that they would for sure recognize Christ if they had seen Him, as Elijah and Moses recognized Him on Mount Tabor; by then, they both had "inside information." :)

Yeah, I have read the postings on whether the OT righteous would have recognized Jesus as Messiah. (John the Baptist certainly did.) I suppose that my take would be that no one ever recognizes Christ unless God reveals Christ to him. So, it wouldn't matter how pious or sinful anyone was, or what their doctrines were, when they lived, or anything else, those whom God chooses will recognize Christ. I have to believe that the OT righteous would have been in that group.

6,367 posted on 05/12/2006 2:19:04 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; qua
no one ever recognizes Christ unless God reveals Christ to him

Oh, people recognize Christ, but some choose to reject Him.

As for Mount Tabor, I always wondered how did Moses and Elijah get there if they were in Hades until Christ rescued them.

6,374 posted on 05/12/2006 4:01:22 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; annalex; Agrarian; qua

"That would put him ahead of the Apostles and appear to indicate more grace."

Eastern Christianity wouldn't try to quantify grace or the grace which is "in" someone, at least as a general matter. Grace, or the uncreated energies of God, has a different meaning in the East than in the West.


6,401 posted on 05/12/2006 1:54:44 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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