Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: jo kus; kosta50
FK: "Do you have any information that Calvin shied away from or didn't like the Gospels? I've never heard of that."

Well, for starters, how about the whole idea of justification by faith that was taught by Calvin and Luther - the concept of extrinsic justification.

I've never heard of extrinsic justification as a defined term, so I obviously can't comment on how or whether it was taught by Luther or Calvin. Here is something I found about a CATHOLIC scholar, Louis Bouyer, whom I don't know, but he mentioned the term. It is in an article called Is Luther's Doctrine of Justification Compatible with Orthodox Catholic Theology? . :

Bouyer admits in passing that Luther's notion of "extrinsic justification" is incompatible with Catholic dogma. Bouyer defines extrinsic justification (correctly) as being something which takes place "exterior to the believer" with the result that the Christian—although just in God's sight—remains a sinner in himself. Bouyer points out that according to this idea, the believer must always feel that his own righteousness is insufficient to please God or insure salvation. His right standing with God is entirely independent of any "interior change." Bouyer asserts, however, that this was not part of the "main" Protestant position or one of Luther's "basic" propositions. Rather, it was an overreaction on Luther's part as he advanced in his conflict with Rome. Furthermore, says Bouyer, Luther did not even teach the doctrine of extrinsic justification consistently himself but contradicted it on many occasions. (emphasis added)

---------------

Doesn't Christ say that WE MUST BECOME RIGHTEOUS - EXCEEDING THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE PHARISEES? This, of course, goes totally against the invention of Luther and Calvin that man can do nothing.

Yes Christ says that, and no, as far as I know that does not go against the teachings of Luther and Calvin. In fact, the only way for believers to exceed the "righteousness" of the Pharisees was that if what Luther and Calvin taught was true, Imputed Righteousness. Man does nothing of his own to receive imputed righteousness. Wouldn't you agree that the righteousness of Christ EXCEEDS the righteousness of the Pharisees? I sure think so. Therefore, there is no contradiction to the scripture.

6,222 posted on 05/11/2006 2:34:43 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5845 | View Replies ]


To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
A perfect biblical example of extrinsic justification can be found in the Book of Job. He is a "perfect man" — in God's eyes (although implicitly denied by Paul's famous statement "none is righteous" — in God's eyes), yet Job himself admits throughout that he is sinful — in his eyes. Another example, of course, is King David. The concept of extrinsic or imputed righteousness is an Old Covenant concept that appears throughout the Old Testament. Through Christ, we know that God invites all to be virtuous, and rigtheous (perfect) as our Father in heaven is, by the power (infusion) of the Holy Spirit and our cooperation with Him.

Yes Christ says that [we must become righteous — exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees], and no, as far as I know that does not go against the teachings of Luther and Calvin

Oh, I think you are in denial! It does very much so show that both Luther and Calvin were in grave error. That command puts the "becoming" on our shoulders and does not in any way suggest righteousness by imputation.

6,226 posted on 05/11/2006 3:52:04 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6222 | View Replies ]

To: Forest Keeper; kosta50
Yes Christ says that, and no, as far as I know that does not go against the teachings of Luther and Calvin. In fact, the only way for believers to exceed the "righteousness" of the Pharisees was that if what Luther and Calvin taught was true, Imputed Righteousness. Man does nothing of his own to receive imputed righteousness. Wouldn't you agree that the righteousness of Christ EXCEEDS the righteousness of the Pharisees? I sure think so. Therefore, there is no contradiction to the scripture.

FK, you are blowing me away here. Over the course of these discussions, you have remained consistent in that God does everything, we do nothing towards salvation. There is no cooperation, no transformation internally in man. Thus, we enter heaven, according to Luther and you, through the external righteousness of Christ, who covers over our own wickedness - since we can do nothing whatsoever of merit, even AFTER our regeneration.

NOW, you talk about imputed righteousness? That man has an ability placed within himself (after regeneration) to turn to God - to cooperate with the graces given? I am beginning to wonder if you are not becoming Methodist (which is an improvement - congratulations!)

If you look at Matthew 5:20 and up to the end of chapter 7, Jesus meticulously details HOW our righteousness can exceed the Pharisees. Elsewhere, He tells us we can do nothing good without Him. So the whole while, we know that Christ must abide within us for us to perform the works of Mat 5-7. But note this - it IS our work as well as Christ's - WE will be judged on this, not on Christ's Work! Christ is not going to be judged! WE will be. And we will be judged on whether our righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees, as laid out in Matthew 5-7.

Regards

6,242 posted on 05/11/2006 8:02:47 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6222 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson