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To: kosta50
The Canon was no problem for the local churches. It was only a problem for the intellectuals. You ougth to know...

Well, as the historian Philip Schaff states,

The first express definition of the New Testament canon, in the form in which it has since been universally retained, comes from two African synods, held in 393 at Hippo, and 397 at Carthage, in the presence of Augustin, who exerted a commanding influence on all the theological questions of his age. By that time, at least, the whole church must have already become nearly unanimous as to the number of the canonical books; so that there seemed to be no need even of the sanction of a general council. (emphasis added) http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/2_ch12.htm

The early church was made up of house churches (Rom.16:5) Nonsense. You are confusing a church building (a temple as it is still called in the Orthodox East) with the Church.

No, the house churches were simple assemblies of believers, with no separation between 'clergy' and 'laity'.

Again, citing Schaff,

Even in the Pastoral Epistles which present the most advanced stage of ecclesiastical organization in the apostolic period, while the teaching, ruling, and pastoral functions of the presbyter-bishops are fully discussed, nothing is said about a sacerdotal function. The Apocalypse, which was written still later, emphatically teaches the universal priesthood and kingship of believers. The apostles themselves never claim or exercise a special priesthood. http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/2_ch04.htm § 43. New Church Officers. The expansion of the church, the development of her cultus, and the tendency towards hierarchical pomp, led to the multiplication of offices below the diaconate, which formed the ordines minores. About the middle of the third century the following new officers are mentioned: http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/2_ch04.htm

Once the Apostles faded out at the end of the 1st century with the death of John, the local church leadership was composed of individual Pastors (Bishops) and Deacons(1Tim.3, 1Pe.5) The Apostles did not "fade away" actually died martyrs' deaths, something most Christians today would probably not do. I love the way Protestants show cntempt for everyone but themsleves.

First, Not all the Apostles were martyred.

Second, more Christians were killed by the Roman Catholic church then were ever killed by the Roman Caesars, so Protestants are very aware of martyrs (see Foxes Book of Martyrs)

The 'gift' of Apostleship is no longer with us.

You had to see the Resurrected Christ to have that gift. (1Cor.15:7-8).

We know that Satan has false apostles (2Cor.11:13,Rev.2:2)

Bishops were direct successors of Apostles, who ordained them. The Church therefore did not change with their "fading away."

Scripture?

The gift of Apostleship was a unique gift for the establishment of the 1st century church before the completion of the NT.

There are only two ordinances, adult Baptism (once, as a symbol of faith-1Pe.3:21) and the Lord's Supper, done in remberance of what the Lord did and His physical return to set up His kingdom (1Cor.11). There is no limit as to the number of Mysteries (Sacraments) spelled out in the Scripture.

Well, there are only two listed.

All the others are not Biblical.

The Roman Catholic system did not even come into existance until the 4th century and has been evolving (leaven-Matthew 13:33) And this is related to the Church canonizing Apostolic teaching in which way?

The 'church' that decided what was scripture and what wasn't, was not the Roman Catholic System, but the true church of those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts.16)

The Church Council that stated the number of NT books was only stating what has already been accepted as fact long ago by the local churches.

See the quote from Schaff at the beginning of the post.

6,022 posted on 05/09/2006 3:04:06 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? (Gal.4:16))
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To: fortheDeclaration; kosta50
the house churches were simple assemblies of believers, with no separation between 'clergy' and 'laity'

This is a Protestant myth.

Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. (James 5:14)
Why couldn's a lay relative do that?

22 What, have you not houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God; and put them to shame that have not? (Corinthians 11:22)
Sounds like houses were for eating dinner and churches were for receiving the Eucharist

And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. (Justin Martyr, First ApologyCHAPTER LXV -- ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS
Looks like people had distinct roles in the Eucharist
6,030 posted on 05/09/2006 3:30:56 PM PDT by annalex
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