LOL! Last summer, we had a truck load of illegals scream down the end of our cul-de-sac and stop in our neighbor's driveway and about 20 people came milling out of this old Nissan pickup with a camper shell while we were cutting our grass. The coyotes took off, the other people, families, really had nowhere to go. Border Patrol came and got them, as my neighbor told them to sit down - they had no clue where they were and were surrounded by walls (unlike back East, every yard is surrounded by a block wall!) It really is a sad situation, and I don't know the answer to it.
PRACTICALLY, I consider whether I am in a rush, have they ripped me off before, and WWJD, etc. This is only human. If I am a good boy, then I trudge back into the store to correct the error, and that is the end of it. INTELLECTUALLY, I would realize that it was God who moved me, by Himself and without anything from me, to go do the right thing. But this would not normally occur to me at the time. It would only if I went outside of the practical into the intellectual. This is what I meant.
I completely disagree that you have nothing to do with this decision! YOU DO have something to do - and it is upon THIS decision and many like it will we be judged, as Christ says in Matthew 25 in several parables. You intellect presents you with alternatives and your will decides based on this input. God moves our will based on the inputs we receive. Again, it is a free will choice. NO ONE makes you sit in the car and keep the money OR go back to the store. Your will has made the choice, in either direction, and is not compelled. In either case, your intellect is not some disembodied thing separate from your will. You ARE experiencing it!
I believe the Bible is God's word because God tells us so in His word.
The bible is God's Word because the Word of God is the Bible... The Word of God is the Bible because the Bible is the Word of God. Can't you see the circular argument here? You can't base a logical argument on such lack of logic.
Even if a fake of one of the books was possible, there is no way in my mind that man could possibly have come up with something so perfect throughout all 66 books and covering so much time, with so many different authors.
First of all, why COULDN'T one of the letters be fake? Paul considered the possibility in several of his letters! And the Bible is perfect? Not to the atheist or those who find contradictions in it. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If one is open to truth, they will see it. But God doesn't force His beauty upon anyone. By the way, you forgot 7 books!
I believe that only God determines His revelation.
Yes - but Protestants believe God gives "me" all this revelation completely and perfectly. If it disagrees with someone else, then THEY are wrong!
If you follow our conversation, then you can see that everything before my semicolon and capitalized "OR" refers to the Catholic Church, and everything after refers to Protestants. In both cases, I give possibilities for error and correctness. You were LOOKING for the insult, but it was not there. :)
Here is what you wrote:
I suppose it is a philosophical question of whether it is better to have only one Church, which might be corrupted utterly (in which case no one is saved), or which might be entirely correct
Explain exactly how the Church established by Christ, the pillar and foundation of truth, became "utterly corrupted"? That is the only excuse Protestants have for walking away from the Catholic Church - but how is it possible that God, who promised that the Gates of hell would not prevail - has fallen? The rock that Christ built His Church upon has fallen? Perhaps you should reconsider that promise that God made to you of being of the elect, if you consider God broke His promise to uphold the Church.
Genesis 2 focused only on the creation story as it regarded Adam and Eve
The order of creation is different. Read it more carefully. I realize the focus - but chronologically and scientifically, the two are faulty. It should be quite obvious that people realized this and determined that the two stories were NOT relating scientific knowledge?
If Jesus is OK with it, then so am I. :)
Jesus NEVER says anything (at least from Scriptures) about the historical creation as related in Genesis. He does not confirm or deny that EITHER story was literally correct.
Regards
NO ONE makes you sit in the car and keep the money OR go back to the store. Your will has made the choice, in either direction, and is not compelled. In either case, your intellect is not some disembodied thing separate from your will. You ARE experiencing it!
But many times I do feel compelled by my conscience to do something good, even though my "real" self doesn't want to. I see this as God's way of moving me. I can definitely tell there is a difference between my conscience now and what it was earlier. I think this is part of sanctification.
FK: "I believe the Bible is God's word because God tells us so in His word."
The bible is God's Word because the Word of God is the Bible... The Word of God is the Bible because the Bible is the Word of God. Can't you see the circular argument here?
That's not what I said, you are misquoting me! Very dangerous. :) I said that God says that the scripture is His word. This opens up God to the same level of scrutiny as any other claimant would have to face. If someone is able to impeach God's credibility, then the statement can be shown to be false. Do you also find the following to be a circular argument, and thus of no value? :
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
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First of all, why COULDN'T one of the letters [of the Bible] be fake? Paul considered the possibility in several of his letters!
Because if it was, then the Bible would not be God's word. We would have no reason to trust any of it. I don't think that could have been God's intention, so I believe He took whatever steps were necessary to make sure that didn't happen. God tells us to be vigilant and always be on the lookout for false teaching. How could He allow just that in His own Holy Book?
And the Bible is perfect? Not to the atheist or those who find contradictions in it.
God says the Bible will be as nonsense to people like atheists. Believers will certainly find "apparent" contradictions, but this does not take away from the perfection of the Bible. When a true believer discovers one of these, what will he do? Yes, he will read, study, and ask questions until he finds a resolution. This is sanctification. Looks perfect to me. :)
By the way, you forgot 7 books!
Then why don't any of you all quote from them, (or do you)? You quote from (my) Bible, and you quote from the Fathers, but I can't remember any times when these other books have been quoted from.
FK: "I believe that only God determines His revelation."
Yes - but Protestants believe God gives "me" all this revelation completely and perfectly. If it disagrees with someone else, then THEY are wrong!
I don't see it that way. God gives His revelation, and sometimes man misinterprets, including Protestants. I argue whatever is my understanding at the time. If someone can show me a better understanding based on scripture I might very well accept it. That has already happened on this thread.
FK: "I suppose it is a philosophical question of whether it is better to have only one Church, which might be corrupted utterly (in which case no one is saved), or which might be entirely correct ..."
Explain exactly how the Church established by Christ, the pillar and foundation of truth, became "utterly corrupted"?
I was using the two extremes and meant "or anything in between". I obviously don't think the RCC is totally corrupted or I wouldn't think you are Christian. I just see that since the Catholic faith has SO MUCH power being delegated to men by God, combined with the fullest view of free will, that there is a huge opportunity for "men" to steer the faith into error. I think that was the professed reason for the Reformation.
As more and more scriptures start to lose their meanings in favor of seemingly contradictory Traditions, then I think there is legitimate cause for concern. Whether something is declared to be dogma, doctrine, or discipline, in order for it to work, all relevant scripture, if any, must be interpreted as consistent with the idea in order to follow the rule that scripture does not contradict tradition. I have found that this leaves very little for the seeker to read in the Bible to know what is going on. I do not believe that God was the most cryptic author ("inspirer") in the history of literature.
[Re: Gen. 1 and 2] The order of creation is different. Read it more carefully. I realize the focus - but chronologically and scientifically, the two are faulty. It should be quite obvious that people realized this and determined that the two stories were NOT relating scientific knowledge?
Yes, except for the word "faulty", I agree. The article I posted said basically that the account in Gen. 1 is the chronological and more scientific account. Gen. 2 focused on relational matters, and so we should not take that chronology as being literal.