Replies

Jo, you and Kosta have given me the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Christianity is unconnected to Judaic theology. I contend that Christianity is the culmination of the Old Testament theology. I have gotten the impression that you think Jesus showed up and preached ideas that were antithical to Jewish belief.

Are you aware that the sons of Zebeedee, the first apostles, were not "simple fishermen",but because of where they lived, likely members of the tribe of Zebulon?

In Jewish history, Zebulon supported Issachar, the tribe of scholars. In fact, when they went on the march, Zebulon and Issachar marched at the forefront with Judah, the symbolism being of course, that the Word of God took the lead with the tribe of the other Word of God.

"Are you aware that the sons of Zebeedee, the first apostles, were not "simple fishermen",but because of where they lived, likely members of the tribe of Zebulon?"

John 19:25 mentions four women standing at the cross, Mary, Jesus' mother, Mary's sister, Mary, the wife of Cleophas (Alphaeus) and Mary Magdalene. Matt. 27:56 identifies Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James and Joses and the mother of Zebedee's children. Mark 15:40 identifies the women as Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses and Salome.

From these cites we get;

Mary the mother of Jesus,
Mary's sister, Salome, the mother of Zebedee's children, James and John, Jesus' cousins, and therefore of the tribe of Judah,
Mary wife of Cleophas (Alphaeus) mother of James the Less and Joses,
Mary Magdalene

As to Jesus' brothers and sisters, Mark 6:1 says Jesus came to Nazareth with His disciples and verse 3 says "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." this is also reported by Matthew 13:55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"

Paul confirms that James was the brother of Jesus,
Gal.1:19 "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." and Jude confirms that he was a brother of the Lord, Jude 1:1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:"

Paul does not call Peter the Lord's brother and Mark distinguishes disciples from brethren and sisters. Jude identifies himself as the brother of James which fits in with Matthew's and Mark's listing of the brothers of Jesus.

Interesting that the brothers did not recognize Him as the Christ until after the resurrection but His cousins James and John did. this would explain their wanting the choicest seats in glory and John being the disciple that Jesus loved. Cousins are always closer than brothers. they don't know you day after day!
Pardon me if this has probably been posted before, but the exercise was fun.

Jo, you and Kosta have given me the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Christianity is unconnected to Judaic theology. I contend that Christianity is the culmination of the Old Testament theology

Neither I nor, certainly, jo said that Christianity is not connected to Judaic theology. I will leave jo out of this, and only speak for myself, as I believe jo has not questioned, as I have, the notion that the faith of the Prophets and Moses is the same faith we have -- an assertion that Moses and the Prophets would have recognized Christ as God. I believe that is what Agrarian had said, and if I am misrepresenting it I am pinging him for a correction.

My objection to this is based on the following: except for John the Baptist, we have no evidence but can only speculate, that this is so.

The one Apostle who always gets "blamed" for weakness in faith is St. Thomas, who wanted a "proof" of what was really an unbelievable event. What "proof" would one get from wounds is interesting, other than perhaps no one recognized physically the resurrected Christ, but only knew He was one and the same Jesus Christ by His presence, not appearance.

Thus, His wounds (others having not been nailed to the cross and stabbed in the thorax) would indicate that He was indeed the same man who died on the cross three days earlier. It is only when St. Thomas establishes that the wounds are real that he says "My Lord and my God." I guess every doubting Thomas in the world would have done the same at that point! But +Tomas's doubts were not a singular event.

The myrrth-bearing women did not recognize Him either. They did not come to anoint a resurrected God, but a dead body! The Apostles did not all believe their story. St. Peter denied Christ three times. The Apostles were not ready to die martyrs' deaths until after having witnessed a resurrected Lord. In other words, although they were with Him and "believed on Him" while He was still in Flesh, they did not really recognize Him, did they?

If Judas had believed "on Him" to be truly Who He is, would he have sold Him out for 30 pieces of silver? I doubt it! It was St. Peter who walked on water and then sank!

So, if His own disciples did not believe "on Him" and were dumbfounded with His resurrection, why would the prophets and Moses have recognized the Son of man as the Son of God in Flesh? There is no evidence whatsoever that they would. Only +John the Baptist did.

I dare say that, placing ourselves in the mindset of the Jews and Romans of AD 33, none of us would have seen God in Him? In fact, if he were to walk on earth again, telling us how wrong we have become, and that He is the Son of God, we would put Him in a mental hospital.

Arguing that Moses recognized God in the Burning Bush is not the same. Christ looked like a man. A Burning Bush that talks is a slightly different experience.

Thus, it is not whether there is continuity between Judaism and Christianity, because obviously there is, but to claim that the OT righteous would have recognized God in Jesus is a speculation, and the lack of faith even among the Apostles is almost a conclusive lesson given to us that even those who believe they believe maybe do not really believe.

The other aspect is that Christianity became a different religion. It is not Judaism in praxis. Christianity dismantled Judaism, staring with God on down. What we have in common with Judaism are roots, like America has English, European, Christian roots, but is neither English, nor European, nor Christian as an entity and identity.