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To: Forest Keeper
Is this from when I said that a person must be saved to become a member of a Baptist church? That isn't donatism. Not only do we welcome the unsaved into our pews and Sunday schools every Sunday, we hold several special events every year for the specific purpose of drawing in the unchurched to expose them to the Gospel message.

Yup. Restricting church membership to an elect group is donatism, regardless of the outreach to the nonmembers. Specifically, restricting the sacrament of baptism to those whose faith is showing fruit is definitional donatism, in the case of baptists compounded by elimination of priesthood.

Donatists were more than just an opposition movement. They also had a distinctive worship style, emphasizing ‘mystical union of the righteous inspired by the Holy Spirit and instructed by the Bible.1 Anabaptists and other radical church traditions have looked to Donatists as historical predecessors because of their opposition to the union of state and church, their emphasis on discipleship and, in some cases, their commitment to nonviolence and social justice. Like those in the Radical Reformation in the 16th century, the Donatists saw the Catholics as impure and corrupted.

[...]

Augustine campaigned against this heterodox belief throughout his tenure as bishop of Hippo, and through his efforts the Church gained the upper hand. His view, which was also the majority view within the Church, was that it was the office of priest, not the personal character of the incumbent, that gave validity to the celebration of the sacraments.

Wikipedia: Donatism

Also see Catholic Encyclopedia: Donatists

502 posted on 01/06/2006 2:20:46 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; Forest Keeper

"Restricting church membership to an elect group is donatism, regardless of the outreach to the nonmembers. Specifically, restricting the sacrament of baptism to those whose faith is showing fruit is definitional donatism, in the case of baptists compounded by elimination of priesthood."

Its also a form of Novatianism.


509 posted on 01/06/2006 4:23:45 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: annalex; Forest Keeper
Restricting church membership to an elect group is donatism, regardless of the outreach to the nonmembers.

This coming from a Catholic whose Church policy from the Council of Trent and Vatican I states there is no salvation outside the Church.

513 posted on 01/06/2006 4:33:43 AM PST by HarleyD ("Command what you will and give what you command." - Augustine's Prayer)
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To: annalex
Restricting church membership to an elect group is donatism, regardless of the outreach to the nonmembers. Specifically, restricting the sacrament of baptism to those whose faith is showing fruit is definitional donatism, in the case of baptists compounded by elimination of priesthood.

Well, I suppose that I am not going to win any argument with you on the finer points of what is, and is not donatism. All I know about it is that it was a breakaway movement from the RC Church (I think in Africa somewhere), and that it was characterized by the requirement of special moral purity among church leaders. I also have the impression that it is looked down upon by most people today for one reason or another.

So, what is important to distinguish is whether Baptists and donatists are really the same thing, or whether they simply share one, or a very few similarities. (Catholics and Protestants believe Christ is the Son of God. By no means are they the same faith.)

First of all, we have no "bearing fruit" test for baptism. I've never even heard of it among other Baptists.

If requiring that a formal member of a Baptist church actually be a believer in Christ somehow provides a fair comparison between Baptists and donatists then so be it. I don't know, but I do know that it is ridiculous to criticize a faith for requiring that members actually believe. How does this work in the Catholic Church? Could I just waltz in and be welcomed as a member, even if I held to my SB beliefs? My instinct tells me 'NO WAY'.

In fact, I'll bet that an outside candidate for membership in a Catholic church has to jump through a thousand more hoops to join than a similar candidate at my church. Which is the church of elitism?

536 posted on 01/06/2006 7:50:55 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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