That's how I see it, Jo, but I am sure FK will say it's not so, just as he keeps reminding us that (1) If God ordains something He is not the source of it or responsible for it; yet, Calvinists will tell you that each and every one of us is exactly as God ordained! (2) He will tell you that giving us freedom of will somehow "diminishes" Him, but fails to consider that perhaps our free will is exactly what God ordained in order for us to be able to love Him, freely, because love that is not free is no love. (3) Calvinists will tell you that God loves only those whom He created from all eternity to "love" Him. (4) They consider love an "irresistible" obligation from which no one can shirk.
You can give a bible to an atheist and will he necessarily turn to God? Not if his heart and mind is closed to the possibility
Absolutely! The Bible give no one a faith. Faith comes from God calling us to Him. It's an invitation which he makes incessantly with human beings, and gets rejected repeatedly by them.
Just consider 1 Sam 8:7 "And the LORD said unto Samuel,... they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them..."
and again,
1 Sam 10:19 "And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations
God offers; we reject or accept.
One of THE main reasons that people converted to Christianity was that they saw HOPE in their future
Yes, hope. Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
His very self, His essence, is love
That was the missing part in the OT. Love is not an attribute of God, His "characteristic," but as you say -- His essence, His nature. That's what He is.
The more I hear about it, the more I see why the Council of Trent firmly refuted this un-Christian heresy that removes Love from our lives
Just as the Orthodox Patriarch Jeremiah II and his Synod rejected Lutheran divines three times and basically told them to stop writing to him. He also reprimanded them for disparaging the Pope. A God Who does everything for His own Glory is not a God of love, but of someone who is in love with Himself. We don't know such a God. Our God came, became Man, suffered and died so that all mankind may be free. He didn't do that for His own Glory.
That is the most frustrating of all. Apparently, in their "defense" of God's sovereignty, they restrict what God can choose to do. Like, for example, empty Himself and become a "slave".
They consider love an "irresistible" obligation from which no one can shirk.
Another good point. I think there is a huge gap on our definition of love. To Calvinists, it is an obligation, being forced by fate. To us, it is a self-giving in the image of the Blessd Trinity.
There are many more quotes like yours from 1 Samuel that talk about rejecting the Spirit or God. In the NT, some of these verses are written to people who have already been 'saved'!
That was the missing part in the OT. Love is not an attribute of God, His "characteristic," but as you say -- His essence, His nature. That's what He is.
I believe even in the OT, it is there. I see a cycle of the Jews turning from God, God punishing them (for the purpose of bringing them to repentance, not to be cruel), and the Jews turning back and re-affirming the covenant. I have seen this throughout the historical books in my study. You have to read the OT through the lense of Jesus, though. Otherwise, a person would see a vengeful God.
Just as the Orthodox Patriarch Jeremiah II and his Synod rejected Lutheran divines three times and basically told them to stop writing to him. He also reprimanded them for disparaging the Pope.
I hadn't known that until you and Kolokotronis mentioned that in the past. I find this quite impressive, given the Schism and the view of the Latins towards the Greeks/Russians. One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
A God Who does everything for His own Glory is not a God of love, but of someone who is in love with Himself.
Again, I agree. Of course, God loves Himself, but it is more of God the Father loving God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit loving the other two and so forth. It is not a matter of pride or showmanship.
I [am] the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt; open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people did not hearken to my voice, and Israel did not love me. So I gave them up unto the hardness of their heart, [and] they walked in their own counsels. Oh, if my people would hearken unto me [and] Israel would walk in my ways! I would soon subdue their enemies and turn my hand against their adversaries. Psalm 81:10-14
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that didst kill the prophets and stone those who are sent unto thee, how often I desired to gather thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!" Matthew 23:37
Reading these gives me goose-bumps, the God of the Universe calling out to us lowly men who don't deserve Him one bit. What an incredible love He has for us. Praise God! This is the God I know and Love!
Brother in Christ
That's how I see it, Jo, but I am sure FK will say it's not so, just as he keeps reminding us that (1) If God ordains something He is not the source of it or responsible for it; yet, Calvinists will tell you that each and every one of us is exactly as God ordained! (2) He will tell you that giving us freedom of will somehow "diminishes" Him, but fails to consider that perhaps our free will is exactly what God ordained in order for us to be able to love Him, freely, because love that is not free is no love. ...
You are correct, it is not so. :) God does not judge anyone for salvation based on what he can or cannot do. We do not believe in a works-based salvation.... God chose His elect before "the beginning". Those chosen will be saved and the others will not. He had no duty to choose any of us so all of your human applications of doctrines of "fairness" do not apply. God's ways are not our ways.
(1) If God ordains something SINFUL, such as the betrayal by Judas, then He is not the author or responsible because He allows it rather than causes it. I have already made my case for this. If God ordains something GOOD, then He is the author. ... Yes, each of us is exactly as God ordained us to be. Some will be saved, some will not.
(2) Generally, God did give us the freedom to sin, the precise reason for which I cannot be certain. Perhaps it was to show us our need for Him and that we must be completely dependent on Him. Perhaps it was simply His will in how to order the universe and nothing more need be said. In any event, the appearance of sin could not have been an accident, as you seem to imply. ... When you say that the only true love is free will love, you continue to mix man's and God's points of view. In our human experience, we do experience "free will" to love, and we experience that it is real. For us, it is true. However, from God's POV, it is res judicata, the thing has already been decided. His chosen elect will love Him and He will love them.
[Jo Kus to Kosta:] "You can give a bible to an atheist and will he necessarily turn to God? Not if his heart and mind is closed to the possibility."
A false comparison to Protestantism. None of us believe that. The Bible isn't faith itself, that only comes from God. The Bible is the tangible authority of the faith, on earth.