Yes. The Christian God is the same God of the OT and the NT. There is one Godhead composed of three distinct persons. The Pharisees did not believe in this God, and pro-actively REJECTED this God. It was more than just not understanding.
They [Pharisees] trusted in themselves, rather than in God. It was a loveless faith.
I still think the term "loveless faith" is an oxymoron. :)
So Elijah's faith was worthless because it was not in Jesus Christ? Moses? David?
Those of faith in the OT looked forward to the Messiah, whereas we look backward. The OT prophecies of the coming of Jesus were clear and those who had faith believed in them. Moses and David both wrote about Jesus, so how could they not have faith in Him?
FK: "I have acknowledged many times your saying that you believe that we do nothing good on our own, however, I still see that you give man individual credit. Free will demands this."
That's the message of Scripture. We will be judged based on what WE do - in Christ. We won't be judged on making a one-time proclamation.
OK, FINALLY. :) I have been waiting to hear it "officially". You are saying that man deserves some credit for his own salvation. That's all I need to know.
We, like God, have free will. I don't see how this interferes with an all-powerful God's sovereignty. God's WILL is that we freely come to Him.
You make my argument for me. If God's WILL is that we freely come to Him, then by definition man has the power to thwart God's will. THAT interferes with an all-powerful God's sovereignty.
FK: "I don't agree that God pines for us."
WOW! That explains your concept of God... Clearly, you are missing the greatest theme of Scripture - God's love for mankind. Have you read the Song of Songs?
I believe in an omnipotent God. Such a God does not "Hope" we will make a good decision. Such a God makes the decisions Himself. That is why God does love His elect. God leaves nothing to chance. Why do you think God compares us to sheep? Sheep are among the DUMBEST animals God ever created. Left to their own devices, sheep will literally eat themselves to death! What does that tell you? He is showing us that we are helpless on our own and need a Good Shepherd to lead us. Sheep do not use their free will to belong to the flock, the Shepherd chooses them.
... you would have God a God who happily condemns to eternal hell-fire randomly chosen people or a God who is insecure about giving anyone any sort of credit (though He credits people with righteousness throughout Scriptures).
You place a duty on God that does not exist. You would have the potter having to justify to His creations why He made them as he did. ... Yes, God credits people with righteousness, most notably Abraham. We would disagree on where that faith comes from. I say it comes from God.
Well, then here is something simpler. Does faith include obedience to God's Will?
Yes, true faith includes a new desire to obey God, although a remnant of sin remains so we are not perfect, even though saved. This is the new nature of a regenerated heart. This is the result of being "born again". (As an aside, I still think the term "born again Christian" is redundant.)
At what point does this "faith" become "faith with love", in other words, saving faith? You yourself admit that your initial faith was not 'saving faith', and thus, must not have had a sufficient amount of love. At what point does this faith become "sufficient" to save? Is it at the point of declaration? But if so, how can it have love? It appears to me that love is something acquired through experience, through action, through using the gifts God has given us - not something that is declared.
I don't think I ever said my initial faith was not a saving faith. If anyone asks me today when I was "saved" I would still refer to the Sinner's Prayer I said in high school. I did fall away for a few years, but it wasn't out of a conscious rejection of God, it was out of ignorance. God certainly fixed that when He determined I could handle it. True faith is true faith "plus love" at the beginning. My original love was relatively blind and ignorant, but it was real. It needed to grow and it did. The proof is that I am who I am today. I am sure there are others who said the same prayer I did in high school, and believed they meant it every bit as much as I did, but are now gone forever. God graces, and continues to grace some, but not others.
Does He ask us to obey His commandments, and then not give us the ability to do it? From what I hear, that is exactly your idea of God - to the "un-elect"...
Yes, I can admit that is fair enough. It depends on who the "us" is. I don't think the Bible is meant for the benefit of the non-elect, it is meant for believers, and future believers. God tells us Himself that His word is nonsense to those who do not believe.
It took several hundred years before Christianity hammered out that definition - AFTER the Risen Christ. The Pharisees' problem was that they didn't believe that Christ was the True Messenger of the Father - giving a teaching that excelled Moses. They were blind to the teaching of Love and of self-giving. The Synoptic Gospels do not clearly show Jesus teaching that He was God to the Pharisees.
Those of faith in the OT looked forward to the Messiah, whereas we look backward. The OT prophecies of the coming of Jesus were clear and those who had faith believed in them. Moses and David both wrote about Jesus, so how could they not have faith in Him?
All of those righteous people believed in Jesus? Or did they believe and trust in God, practicing what Jesus was teaching to the Jews in Matthew 5-7?
You are saying that man deserves some credit for his own salvation. That's all I need to know.
So who do you think is being "judged" after OUR deaths? Christ? Have you read the Gospels? Doesn't Christ over and over teach that we must love and have faith and trust in God? WE? WE must be in Christ.
THAT interferes with an all-powerful God's sovereignty.
You keep saying this, not realizing that God condescends to mankind to GIVE man freedom, or ANY gift. It is God's will that He give man free will. When you give someone a gift, does it impose on your "sovereignty"?
That is why God does love His elect.
To me, you are saying God "loves" a random group of people for no particular reason, condemning the rest to hell for no particular reason. I don't think you understand the concept of love. Love is a giving of SELF! It is wishing the best for another for that person's sake. Not for one's own "glory". Any sort of action that is done for one's own benefit is self-love. I don't get that from the Scriptures. I don't see this as a Christian concept.
What does that tell you? He is showing us that we are helpless on our own and need a Good Shepherd to lead us. Sheep do not use their free will to belong to the flock, the Shepherd chooses them.
I never said we do anything without God. I have no problem with your reply. I am not saying we earn anything when we do things. We do the things we do out of love, not for a reward. We are under the system of grace, not the law.
You place a duty on God that does not exist. You would have the potter having to justify to His creations why He made them as he did.
So God is just and judges people based on the fact that they cannot do something? Doesn't that sound a bit sadistic? But yet, God is love? I don't agree with your concept of love.
God credits people with righteousness, most notably Abraham
Why? Random choice? God just chose some dumb and helpless sheep to overwhelm with His grace? That's your idea of love?
True faith is true faith "plus love" at the beginning. My original love was relatively blind and ignorant, but it was real.
So true faith = true faith plus something else? Mathematically, that doesn't add up. You are going to have to explain this better. And your original "love" was ignorant but real? How so? These sound like mere words to me - the "Lord, Lord" and Jesus responds with "I never knew you". Now, it sounds like you are doubling back to make the claim that the Sinner's Prayer is your point of salvation.
I don't think the Bible is meant for the benefit of the non-elect, it is meant for believers, and future believers. God tells us Himself that His word is nonsense to those who do not believe.
How can you be a believer until you have heard the word proclaimed to you? To become a believer, there is some point where you hear the word while not yet believing - perhaps being open to it, maybe agnostic. The Scriptures will make sense only to people whom the Spirit moves and who opens the door of their heart to Christ.
Regards