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You have this paradigm within you and you don't even realize it. You have been TAUGHT a particular way of reading and understanding Scriptures. You have a reference point. Thus, you are able to discern some teachings that don't sound right - such as the docetist idea that Christ "pretended" to be a man and didn't really die on the cross. But reading the Scriptures WITHOUT ANY outside help, you could realistically come to the ANY conclusion.

I realize that I read scriptures partly on the way I have been taught. I admit I have a frame of reference. I just believe that frame of reference is faithful to the scriptures, as opposed to also being faithful to other teachings. As little as possible is added or subtracted from the plain meaning. Sometimes, of course, it is necessary to add or subtract in order to avoid internal conflict, but the way I read the scriptures does not have to please anyone else, or any other person's or organization's teachings.

I disagree that without any outside help that any interpretation is possible. I don't know of any Protestants who believe that Jesus didn't really die on the cross. Imagine yourself without any background, reading everything up until these verses:

Mark 15:37 : With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

Luke 23:46 : Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

To me, the plain meaning of this, without ANY background, would be clear. It would take a serious twisting of interpretation to change the meaning of these words. I am surprised you tried to make this point. That is, unless you think just reading the words as they are is a paradigm in and of itself. I don't know.

There are a number of Scripture references that COULD point to secret knowledge. For example, when Christ interprets His parables ONLY to the disciples, but not the crowds. See, there is really no way to independently KNOW which is correct!

I disagree. The only way to get to secret knowledge or anything else extra-Biblical is to build it in artificially. Once that happens, then yes, anything is possible. But that takes a proactive decision on the part of the reader to get there. It cannot be blamed on the scripture. Yes, some passages are difficult to discern, but that is what the rest of the Bible is for.

As to "Jesus didn't preach knowledge is the way to salvation", what do you think "He who believes will be saved" mean? Isn't that salvation by knowledge of the Risen Lord?

I don't think the Gnostics thought that knowledge and belief were the same thing, at least to how we use the terms. I just implied in a recent post to you that some of the Pygmies will be saved without any formal knowledge. What would the Gnostics say to that? :) Yes, knowledge of the Lord is necessary, but such knowledge is from God to whom He so wills.

[About God choosing the elect without using foreknowledge] Then you are in good company, as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas believed the same thing.

I figured I had a shot at a match with Augustine, but I didn't know about Aquinas. Thanks. :)

Naturally. The search for the "Real" Jesus continues. Do you realize that EVERYONE says what you are? Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians, Docetists, Arians, and any other group of people looking at the Book? We ALL have our perceptions of what God is trying to say... None of us were there, so, as all good scholars do, we make God into our own ideas and thoughts of Whom He is and what He has revealed.

Again, you should read up more on Christian heresies. The Docetists say that Christ merely "pretended" to die. There is very little discussion on the agony of Christ - almost as if He was silent on the cross. The Gnostics have various different explanations as well. THEY say that God COULD NOT die on the cross. It was a substitution of Judas Iscariot or Simon the Cyrenean. The Muslims ALSO say the same thing - God didn't die on the cross. EVERYONE, including you, has a paradigm that they approach Scriptures with. These people don't think that God could suffer and die, so any "clear" Scripture is obviously a spiritual, not literal meaning. It is the Catholic faith that you draw the majority of your paradigms from.

I disagree. The only way to get to secret knowledge or anything else extra-Biblical is to build it in artificially.

Baloney. Who said that everything must be written down for it to be official? You are too enamoured with the US Justice system, I think. Much of the Jewish Scripture is based on oral traditions passed down CENTURIES until they were written down. Many of our ancient manuscripts of history or biographies are written hundreds of years AFTER the fact. Much of our information that we have is based on traditions passed down orally at least for some period of time - often for generations. Did you learn to eat by reading a book? Do you think people 1500 years ago learned by reading books? Or that they were overly concerned with written material?

You are probably correct. However, faith in something comes from knowledge. And it also depends on what kind of knowledge we are talking about. For example, when Paul talks about "knowing" the Lord, he is not discussing "book" knowledge, but experiential knowledge attained from a personal relationship. Thus, the Book is not needed absolutely for such experiences. We can come to know Christ WITHOUT a book in this manner. The Gnostic's concept of knowledge was based on God's secret revelation to them alone. The Catholic concept of knowledge was that ALL had this knowledge of experiencing Christ available to them - IF they turn from sin and place their faith in Him. What would the Gnostics say about the Pygmies? Perhaps they would agree. It would depend on the Pygmies knowledge meshing with the Gnostics view on the cosmic reality around them.

I figured I had a shot at a match with Augustine, but I didn't know about Aquinas. Thanks. :)

Catholics are taught that the elect are predestined irrestistibly by God. He actively brings His elect to Him WITHOUT overriding their will. This is an important thing to keep in balance - both realities must be maintained. But God does NOT actively choose people for perdition. Man does that on his own despite the efforts that God makes. Yes, man CAN and DOES refuse God. And God's wrath to them is shown in Romans 1:18-28. This is the basics on Catholic teaching on predestination. There is a lot of room for speculation within these parameters.

Regards