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To: jo kus
Whether God "plans around us" or plans "simultaneously" with our actions, who can really say.

I still don't see how "simultaneity" can have any meaning for us humans. But, if God plans around us then His sovereignty is destroyed. Of course God would have the power to do it if He chose, but it would necessarily make Him weaker. That would allow the creation to lead the creator.

How is God DEPENDENT upon us, then???

He is dependent if He takes into account His foreknowledge of our decisions into His decision to elect us. Regardless of whether God is subject to time, He acts in time as far as we can comprehend. If not, then there is no longer any need for discussion, and you cannot claim to be right because the true answer is unknowable. That would raise all of my views on predestination to a par with your views because the true answer cannot be known.

4,184 posted on 03/30/2006 10:19:16 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
But, if God plans around us then His sovereignty is destroyed.

God MADE us in His image - which means we have been given a rational intellect and a will. No other visible creature has that. So HOW is God's sovereignty taken away if He made us this way? Are you saying God now regrets giving us too much control over His actions?

God's sovereignty is NOT destroyed by ANYTHING we do! That's like saying a fly on the table is controlling my sovereignty because I choose not to crush it...Does that make me "weaker"? Am I dependent on the fly??? Your argument is not making sense - and in regards to God and man, the void is even greater than a fly and myself.

He is dependent if He takes into account His foreknowledge of our decisions into His decision to elect us.

"Dependency" in this case presumes time. Is God "planning" what to do with us within time? No, He is outside of time. He has access to ALL time at once. It is only from our point of view that it appears that God would be dependent on man's actions. Your position that God does not view man's response before electing someone is certainly within the realm of Catholic teaching's flexiblility on the matter. I am "trying" to see things from how God would see them outside of time, since He is the point of reference in this discussion, not man. A being outside of time does not have a past or future. Thus, there is no "waiting" to make a decision, no dependence on what we do, and no guessing or hoping that we fulfill His plan. All time is compressed into one moment. To go beyond this is a mystery - and probably, I have gone too far in this conversation. :)

Regards

4,191 posted on 03/30/2006 11:32:16 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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