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To: jo kus
Again, time! God chose us "first". From God's point of view, there is no time, there is no "first" or "second" or "last". To us, certainly, God chose us first. But since we are talking about God's choice, I don't see how God CANNOT foresee our response and make His decision based on that. Of course, either opinion is acceptable to the Church.

My position would be equivalent to the view of some Catholics that God makes His decisions without foreknowledge. I would be interested to know if that view follows up with my conclusion that therefore, God must have caused our acceptance, otherwise, not all of the elect would accept, and there would be a paradox. That would seem to get rid of free will, so how is this resolved?

God's will and pleasure might very well BE to choose those who choose Him - granting more grace as that man continues to accept God more in His life. If the man turns from God, God turns from the man, withholding further grace that might "force" the man to Him.

Then God is not sovereign. If God's will is DEPENDENT on man's choices, then we have some measure of power or affect on God. I do not believe it could be God's will to give us power or influence over Him, just as I do not believe that God delegated powers unique to Him to man. You are denying God's omnipotence.

4,035 posted on 03/25/2006 3:44:59 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
My position would be equivalent to the view of some Catholics that God makes His decisions without foreknowledge. I would be interested to know if that view follows up with my conclusion that therefore, God must have caused our acceptance, otherwise, not all of the elect would accept, and there would be a paradox. That would seem to get rid of free will, so how is this resolved?

That is true, it is an acceptable position to take - that some Catholics can see that God chooses His elect without foreknowledge. Isn't the flexibility of the Catholic Church wonderful? However, this does not mean that God CAUSED our acceptance, no more than God CAUSED evil. In each case, God has seen to the end of the world and has planned accordingly to fulfill His will. Whether God "plans around us" or plans "simultaneously" with our actions, who can really say. We DO know that God does not take away our free will. There are too many verses that deal with our responsibility to obey God, for being judged based on what WE do, and for how God reacts to US when we do something. Scripture notes that there is some sort of interaction between God and man. I don't think we'll ever put it all together until we meet Him "face to face".

If God's will is DEPENDENT on man's choices, then we have some measure of power or affect on God.

For the ten thousandth time, you are placing God within time. You make it sound like God is drifting around in some sort of stasis waiting for us to do something, then God reacts to us....I don't really know how else to tell you this, but there is NO TIME for God. How is God DEPENDENT upon us, then??? He sees our response to His graces thousands of years ago. Everything you will do is seen in one moment for God. What can I say? Perhaps we should just move along to something else.

Regards

4,053 posted on 03/26/2006 2:34:57 PM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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