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To: HarleyD
Orange states man body and soul is DEAD. Trent states that the human nature has not been “totally corrupted”. Well, excuse me but if the soul is DEAD I don’t know how much more corrupted it could be. Do you?

First, let’s correct your presumption that you place onto Orange. First, the term “dead in sin” does not mean that man’s WILL is destroyed. It means that man is WITHOUT sanctifying grace (as Orange and Trent affirm) in their soul. We have life when Christ abides in us. This is what “life” means. But our will is WEAKENED – not DESTROYED. For example, regarding free will…

CANON 1: If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius (Orange)

This canon tells that man’s will is NOT unimpaired, but not that it is destroyed! Consider the following:

CANON 8: If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God…{let him be anathema} (Orange)

CANON 19: That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could by no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God? Again, man’s nature is not destroyed. It is damaged in that it needs God to receive sanctifying grace and be saved for eternal life. Man cannot come to God without God. But man’s nature is not destroyed or totally corrupted. Lacking the abiding presence of the Lord is a death of the soul, but not of our nature or will. In each case above, we sese that Orange did not view that man was totally corrupted – but wounded.

The Council of Trent on this subject agrees. Man cannot come even to initial justification without God’s graces. His will is moved by the illumination of the Spirit to come to God.

The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them. (Session 6, Chapter 1, Trent)

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. (Session 6, Chapter 5, Trent)

If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption. (Decree Concerning Original Sin, Trent)

Here, we see that ALL men are affected by Adam’s sin of disobedience. The end result can NOT be restored by human powers (vs. Pelagianism), but only by Jesus Christ. Because of Adam, our will is weakened. We absolutely need God’s presence and grace within us to move our will to His.

Council of Orange CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin...

Council of Trent CANON IV. If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God,

As usual, you forgot a key element of the quote and insert your ellipses…

Orange CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself…

Trent CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

First, read Canon III of Trent:

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema

Second, you ignore Scripture when it says that man can ignore the Graces of God “We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.” 2 Cor 6:1

With the full context of Canon 4 of Trent, we see the Bishops were referring to man being TOTALLY PASSIVE. Scripture disagrees with that. And note, in Orange Cannon 4, Phil 2: 13, which states “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" I would like to point out that God does indeed cleanse our will, but NOT WITHOUT US! Note, He is at work in us to cleanse our will. But we are not passive in subsequent decisions on whether to obey the commandments or not.

I believe your error is that you consider man’s will destroyed as a result of original sin, when the Church never made such a statement. This leads you to believe that man is totally passive in an action, again, refuting Scripture and the Counciliar declarations.

Regards

3,930 posted on 03/22/2006 10:32:29 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: jo kus
First, the term “dead in sin” does not mean that man’s WILL is destroyed.

CANON 1: If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius (Orange)

This canon tells that man’s will is NOT unimpaired, but not that it is destroyed!

CANON 19: That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy.Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could by no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God? Again, man’s nature is not destroyed. It is damaged in that it needs God to receive sanctifying grace and be saved for eternal life. Man cannot come to God without God. But man’s nature is not destroyed or totally corrupted.

The Council of Trent on this subject agrees.

As usual, you forgot a key element of the quote and insert your ellipses…

First, read Canon III of Trent:

Second, you ignore Scripture when it says that man can ignore the Graces of God

I believe your error is that you consider man’s will destroyed as a result of original sin, when the Church never made such a statement.


3,931 posted on 03/22/2006 11:14:24 AM PST by HarleyD ("A man's steps are from the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24 (HNV))
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