Replies

My evil twin, HarleyP. Sometimes it hard to differentiate between the two of us

Ah, yes...Paul mentions something about that fleshy self in Romans 7!

And I'll quote Augustine -

I have come to find out that quoting St. Augustine can be nearly as hazardous as quoting Scriptures! Seems like the Saint had a lot to say on the subject of grace. I know you regard him as an authority. That's fine. But perhaps you should read some more of the Church Fathers, such as I have previously posted.

Have you found anything on Orange that shows that Catholicism went off the rails with Trent?

And finally, just an observation I made while studying Scripture (yes, somehow I managed that despite this endless thread!). Basically, it is a comparision between 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees (I know you don't consider them Scripture, but they are part of the Christian Scripture that the Fathers drew from). First Maccabees over and over talks about how MEN are responsible for doing 'x'. God is pretty much in the background in that book, although from time to time, He serves as the Divine Mover. Second Maccabees (by the way, different writers) focuses to quite a large degree on God's authority and power - and that men go along largely for the ride (sorry for the colloquialism). This is part and parcel of the Christian experience - we deal with BOTH concepts, rather than a strictly either/or experience of how God is working in our lives.

I think you'd like 2 Maccabees. God is definitely given the credit for things, while man is relegated to more of a background role.

Regards

Ah, yes...Paul mentions something about that fleshy self in Romans 7!

LOL!!! I was going to use that but I didn't want to foster this dispensational misinterpretation of scripture.

As far as the Council of Orange...

1) Original Sin – Something the Orthodox do not agree with and the Catholics have moved away from. The Council felt original sin was a fact and not to believe it was a contradiction to the Apostle.

Council of Orange CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

2) The Council of Orange felt that it was God’s grace that makes us pray to Him even though we do not seek him. (Remember Jonah. It was God that made him pray to Him and repent.)

Council of Orange CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).

3) The Council felt God did not await our will but He prepared our will. Contrast this with what the Council of Trent stated that it is our will to decide. This is the heart of the Augustine/Pelagius(Arminian) controversy. It also reminds me of our Jonah discussions:

Council of Orange CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

Council of Trent CANON IV. If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed"!

CANON V.- If anyone shall affirm, that since the fall of Adam, man’s freewill is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing titular, yea a name, without a thing, and a fiction introduced by Satan into the Church; let such an one be accursed"!

I will agree the Council of Orange was not perfect in their declarations for they never took their reasoning to it’s logical conclusion; that God ordains the lives of men-the very heart of predestination. But they were on the right tract. Augustine understood it.

Trent contradicted Orange and in some cases completely altered the believes of Orange. Today when Catholics point back they point to Trent, not Orange. And Trent is more to the liking of the Orthodox simply because it is in line with their beliefs-not Orange. That should speak volumes.

It never ceases to amaze me when contrasting these two points of views to see the Council of Orange using scripture to support their statements and the Council of Trent using none. Undoubtedly, as many other Catholics have told me, you’ll find nothing out wack here.

As far as your veiw of Maccabee, I do not consider it to be inspired and neither did a large majority of early fathers or the Jews. Protestants always feel that questionable verses need to be supported with other verses from other parts of scriptures before setting doctrine. If you could provide me with other references I would consider them. However, they don’t exist.