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To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis; kosta50
The frustration you're experiencing isn't with me.

Is there another person using your screen name? :)

The only way Jonah could have repented was if God granted it. The only way Jonah could cooperate was if God granted it. The only way Jonah could have had faith was if God granted it. Jonah's own will (and ours) are controlled by God.

Jonah could not have done any of the above without God. But it doesn't follow that God ALONE did any of it - which is what you presume. I am merely quoting the teacings of St. Augustine - "God saves no man without man". No, I can't explain HOW or to what degree we cooperate with God. But it is clear from Scripture that we are commanded to obey - and are given the freedom to choose life or death. Certainly, we are given the ABILITY to choose one or the other - but it doesn't follow that we are puppets.

The Orthodox are right to dismiss the Council of Orange's statement because it is not what they believe and as far as I can determined never have.

IF the Orthodox reject the Council of Orange, it is because of its discussion on original sin, which is the preliminary compilation on the subject from the PART of the Church - and later re-affirmed by an Ecumenical Council at Trent. I would presume that is the reason, IF they do... I am pretty sure that the Orthodox do not teach that man can come to God without God... I'll ping a few to make sure. I am sure they will correct this if wrong.

As to free will not being part of the Church's beliefs, I haven't seen you respond to this being part and parcel of the Church Fathers, especially the ones I listed from the first two centuries. Also, I don't find in Orange 2 that makes the claims you make regarding free will. The key word you seem to be overlooking is "WITHOUT GOD". That is the key aspect of this heresy. We cannot come to God WITHOUT God.

Regards

3,824 posted on 03/20/2006 11:37:12 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: jo kus; Kolokotronis; kosta50
Is there another person using your screen name? :)

I am merely quoting the teacings of St. Augustine - "God saves no man without man".


3,842 posted on 03/20/2006 4:07:06 PM PST by HarleyD ("A man's steps are from the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24 (HNV))
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