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To: Forest Keeper
I do believe that faith includes all those things you listed.

I disagree. They are not the same thing. Faith can lead to doing good deeds, but it is quite obvious that faith does NOT necessarily lead to good deeds. James 2 makes this abundantly clear. Thus, they are two separate attributes. Do you think the Pharisees had faith in God - yet, how much did they love??? No, brother, they aren't the same thing.

How else does Eph. 2:8-9 make sense? Haven't you said yourself that everything comes from God?

Yes, it comes from God - but requires our cooperation for it to take place. God desires that we freely come to Him. Love is not forcing yourself unto another.

In James, it specifically notes a man who "SAYS" he has faith. Anyone can say that

Take note of that. Anyone can say they are of the elect, also.

What do you think is meant by "moving mountains"? Do you take it literally?

No, I take it as a metaphor. But what's the difference? Faith and love are two different things in this passage. It should be quite evident that a person can have LOTS of faith, but have no love. This makes that faith worthless. Can't you see there is an interaction between faith and love? Faith without love is dead. Thus, faith ALONE does not save. I don't see how the Scripture could have made it more clear.

Is faith the only gift God gives us, or does He also gives the ability to love, to repent, and so forth?

Regards

3,763 posted on 03/19/2006 12:12:33 PM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: jo kus; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Faith can lead to doing good deeds, but it is quite obvious that faith does NOT necessarily lead to good deeds. James 2 makes this abundantly clear. Thus, they are two separate attributes. Do you think the Pharisees had faith in God - yet, how much did they love???

No, I do not think the Pharisees had true faith, nor did they love.

Matt. 23:13 : "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

---------------

FK: "How else does Eph. 2:8-9 make sense? Haven't you said yourself that everything comes from God?"

Yes, it comes from God - but requires our cooperation for it to take place.

So the Catholic interpretation of Eph. 2:8-9 is: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith plus cooperation -- and this is mostly not from yourselves, it is partly a gift of God, - not by works for pay, so that no one can boast." :)

FK: "In James, it specifically notes a man who "SAYS" he has faith. Anyone can say that.

Take note of that. Anyone can say they are of the elect, also.

Well, if you admit that a person can falsely claim faith, then doesn't that wipe out your proof from James above?

It should be quite evident that a person can have LOTS of faith, but have no love. This makes that faith worthless. Can't you see there is an interaction between faith and love? Faith without love is dead.

I suppose this means that I have no idea what you say faith really is. I have just never heard of the concept being split up like this.

3,932 posted on 03/22/2006 11:41:24 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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