Are we born with sufficient knowledge of God to make an informed decision, and is there scripture to support it? If we all know God, how is it that most of us make an informed and reasoned choice in favor of (spiritual) suicide? Don't we have any instinct for survival?
For instance, there are few women in Churches whose heads are covered, and that is decreed in the New Testament.
I agree with what you said about bishops. I know that women are supposed to dress modestly, but head covering, as in a veil? That is really in the NT?
FK: "We are born with a sin nature, through Adam."
I hear this over and over and wonder what that means. We are born spiritually separated from God. God gave us body and soul. Bodies have needs. Our needs are not in themselves sinful but how we go about satisfying them that is -- our intent and direction.
Here is an excerpt from GRACE ALONE: An Evangelical Problem? by Kim Riddlebarger (if you click on the link, just go directly to question "2"):
"The Scriptures are also clear that our sinful nature is something with which we are born. According to the Psalmist in Psalm 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Thus we are born sinful, sinful from the very moment of conception. The Psalmist goes on to say in Psalm 58(3), "Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies." We go astray from birth and we are born liars. We do not need to learn how to sin, it comes quite naturally to us."
"The sinful nature (i.e., "the flesh") with which we are born produces a host of sinful actions. The author of 1 Kings (8:46) contends "there is no one who does not sin" and the author of Proverbs (20:9) laments, "Who can say, `I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin'? Indeed Moses writes in Genesis 6:5, "the LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." Thus because we are born in sin, every thought, every inclination is purely evil. This is not something that we enjoy hearing, but it is what the Scripture clearly teaches about human nature."
"And this doctrine of human sinfulness is not only clearly taught in the OT, it is found with equal force in the New Testament, even on the lips of our Lord. For our Lord says much the same thing in Matthew 15:19, when he declares "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." Thus the specific sins which we commit come from the sinful condition of our hearts. For as it is used in Scripture, the heart is the seat of our very personality - the heart is the true self, what we really are."
"Jesus went on to point out in Matthew 7:16-20, that "By their fruit you will recognize [wolves who come in sheep's clothes]. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." Can any one of us here pretend for even a single moment that unlike everyone else, we are born good trees, and that we somehow escape the effects of sin which befall the entire human race? For out of each of our hearts inevitably spring the evil deeds and sins that all of us commit on a regular basis."
In addition, this passage specifically calls out Adam as the reason we are born doomed (without God):
Rom. 5:12-18 : 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
I can't remember who it was, but I think someone has made the argument that this only refers to physical death. But if that's true, then the corresponding references to life would have to be for physical life, and that wouldn't make sense. No one has immortal physical life.
FK: "You imply that we think God forces us to sin. None of this is correct."
Yet God is in full control and ordains our steps? Did God not 'set up' the whole scenario in the Garden of Eden so that Adam would fall, as Harley D implies? What do you call that, FK?
I call that exactly correct! :) God sure did set up the whole scenario in the Garden, didn't He? Who put the tree where Adam and Eve could get to it? Who allowed satan access? Could God have prevented it, or was it an accident? You agree that God already knew what would happen, and yet He set the conditions. Why would God do this if He loves us? Because He is sovereign and it was His will. I can't begin to explain all the "whys" behind His will, but I can see the facts before me and conclude that it was His will.
However, I do not see how this would translate into God forcing us to sin. I am still thinking about the Pharaoh example that Harley brought up a couple of days ago. The Bible does say that God proactively hardened his heart. I am not sure if the idea is that God "zapped" him into doing evil, or if the idea is that God simply removed all grace from him and left him to his natural sinful nature, which would be a hardened heart. I think I have been arguing the latter, but I would like to hear more about it, if that puts me off the reservation. :)
I think it is very simple, regarding the Pharaoh. The Bible says in some places that God hardened his heart and in another that the Pharaoh hardened his own heart. But in either case, a hardened heart means merely a predisposition for lack of compassion. Nowhere does the scripture say that God made the pharaoh actually decide against Moses. The interaction of divine will and Pharaoh's in that episode is exactly how the Church undertands free will: that God allows man to act in an evil manner and turns that evil into good in His unfathomable ways. Note that when God encourages Moses to act for something good, God gives Moses specific orders and performs miracles for him. Yet both Moses and the Pharaoh act on their own, albeit predisposed by God.
"I know that women are supposed to dress modestly, but head covering, as in a veil? That is really in the NT?"
This is the traditional understanding of I Cor 11:10. As little as a century ago, not only would you find universal head covering by women in church in Orthodox parishes, but it was standard in Catholic churches as well (some traditionalist Catholic parishes still mandate it). Even in Anglicanism, women wore hats to church long after they were no longer wearing them any other time -- a vestigial remnant of this "ancestral memory."
I'm not sure when women covering heads stopped in the Protestant world. Certainly up until the Reformation, head covering was universal in the Christian world. I imagine it continued for quite a while after the Reformation as well, and not just for cultural and fashion reasons.
FK and Joe:
You might find this post interesting as it deals with Orthodox theology on grace and salvation as expounded by +Gregory Palamas.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1599043/posts
"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven" (1 Cor 11:15)
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man." (1 Cor 11:17)
"For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels." (1 Cor 11:10)
For a people who comb through the Bible as much as Proptestants do, you sure seem to miss an awful low of verses...picky, picky, picky. :)