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To: Forest Keeper
Is your idea of simultaneity found anywhere in scripture? I don't think that it is. But, this idea is very useful to you in explaining free will, isn't it? This un-biblical idea allows you to erase all the scriptures that speak of God choosing us, and that is the reason we are saved. It's not the concept I object to, it's the use of the concept.

Apparently, it wasn't a concept that important to note in Scriptures. However, we can figure it out by theological thought. God is outside of time. He created it. Thus, He is not subject to it. Time = change. Thus, God is unchanging. THIS is in Scripture. God's ways do not change. Since God operates outside of time, He is currently in the PRESENT. There is no past or future - that indicates change. God is unchanging, thus, He lives in a PRESENT NOW. God views all time, past, present, and futute, as one moment. If this is so, there is a sense of simultaneity involved in God's decisions. Certainly, He foresees and chooses us. But since He ALSO is able to see our response at the same "time" as He chooses, it follows that our response effects His "choice" before we were even born in a particular year within time. Thus, when He created the heavens and the earth, He already seen our ultimate end: Our choosing and response to His graces that He would give to us within time - but to Him, an event that is unchanging.

Again, think about the "eternally begotten Son". He is ALWAYS being begotten from the Father in that unchangeless existence that is God's - outside of time. I admit, it can be difficult to wrap your mind around this concept, since we are not privy to God's ways outside of time. However, Scripture notes God's attributes of timelessness. Thus, theological reflection leads us to see that God acts in a different fashion than we do in time. The Church has recognized this in an undefined manner since the beginning. How? Because they have said from the beginning that we take part in that event of Calvary when we participate in the sacrifice of the Mass. Since Christ is God, that one event occured in our time of 33 AD AND HIS "time" of NOW. Thus, Christ, through His incarnation, makes Himself available to us today, just as He was available and will be available to ALL times.

Regards

3,731 posted on 03/18/2006 2:08:05 PM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: jo kus
But since He ALSO is able to see our response at the same "time" as He chooses, it follows that our response effects His "choice" before we were even born in a particular year within time. Thus, when He created the heavens and the earth, He already seen our ultimate end: Our choosing and response to His graces that He would give to us within time - but to Him, an event that is unchanging.

What I'm zooming in on, is just how exactly does God's foreknowledge affect His predestination decision? What is the influence? The word "affect" connotes a before and after, and is a time-related word. Doesn't this view require that God simply elects all those whom He already knows have chosen Him? Otherwise, some who have chosen Him are not of the elect.

My view is that God chose us first, and that His foreknowledge of our acceptance included that it was caused by Him. Therefore, there is no conflict.

Eph. 1:4-5 : 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— ...(emphasis added) No human influence is implied.

3,905 posted on 03/21/2006 6:05:27 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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