you are interpreting the Catholic view incorrectly. Back to our mother/daughter and the cookies. Is the mother forcing her daughter to make cookies? It is her will that the daughter do a loving activity with the mother. You would have the mother grab the child by the hand forcibly, hanking her unwillingly to the table and stuff the cookie dough into her hand. NOW MAKE THOSE COOKIES NOW!!! Man doesn't "determine" his own salvation. God judges man based on his response - by GOD'S STANDARDS, not man's. Read the Beatitudes if you want to know God's standards of obeying His will. My "version" of free will NEVER removes God from the picture!!! This is totally ridiculous and a terrible injustice to my position, as I have time and again said that God comes to us to aid us in ANY good deed to move our will. I have repeatedly quoted Phil 2:12-13 as our view on cooperation. I am baffled on your inability to ascertain what "cooperation" means and how it somehow takes God out of the picture!!!
I find it a pity that you find the Bible so inadequate that it must be supplemented by the words of popular men.
Then why do you read commentaries? Why do you listen to pastors and their interpretations? Are you being hypocritical now?
How do you not see that THEREFORE, God's promises are of no value to any particular person because no one can know if they apply to him?
LOL! The Bible tells us IF we persevere, IF we obey the commandments, we are IN Christ. Thus, the promise is for us, IF we continue to persevere in the Lord.
I have no idea what (who) spoke to those missionaries originally. Isn't it ironic that you are the one who presumes to know? :)
Now, substitute yourself into this scenario - "isn't it ironic that you are the one who presumes to know "who" spoke to you"?
I wrote "What does Paul say about that in 1 Cor 10:12?
You responded He says we should never take our salvation for granted
Perhaps you should read the Scriptures again...
"Wherefore lest he fall. Seems pretty clear to me, by the plain reading of Scripture, that Paul is warning the Corinthians to not be overconfident. His story of the Jews who DIED in the desert is clearly a warning that the SAME is possible spiritually for Christians. Again, you are twisting Scriptures. Read the context of the verses immediately proceeding. Paul is talking about DEATH!
But then you said that Christ completed His mission by earning the remission of the sin of all mankind. Does that mean He earned it and is keeping it in His pocket until we do something to earn it for ourselves?
All sin is potentially forgiven as a result of Christ's work. However, to claim that forgiveness, we must ASK for it! WE must repent and convert. Isn't that clear from loads of Scripture that WE are required to respond to God's graces of faith and repentence? Over and over, God's forgiveness is seen as conditional, based on our own turning to Him. Recite the Lord's Prayer slowly, for example.
That doesn't match what you have said before, and it doesn't sound complete at all.
Adam completed our downfall, but according to you, Christ did nothing of the sort in opposite. Christ only bought us a lottery ticket, for a "chance". I just think Christ is much more powerful than this. You appear to be making Adam more powerful that Christ.
Adam has given us original sin, but WE ALSO freely choose to disobey God. Thus, WE choose death, separation from God. Christ has, in the same fashion, won salvation for men, but again, they must CHOOSE life, union with God (with the tools that God has given us, not by ourselves).
Regards
There is a perfect example of why I can't make sense of your position. The second you say "aid" that immediately throws God out of the final decision because you have said repeatedly that a free will can resist advice if it is free. This does not match at all the idea that everything comes from God. If all God offers is aid, then the rest must come from us independently.
I am baffled on your inability to ascertain what "cooperation" means and how it somehow takes God out of the picture!!!
It is because you are using the terms "cooperate" and "free will" in ways I have never seen in the English language before. To me, "cooperate" means two or more parties operating together toward a common goal. You cannot agree with this if you think everything good comes from God. It is the same with free will. How can free will be exercised if everything comes from God? If you do not remove God from the final decision, there cannot be true freedom of will.
Then why do you read commentaries? Why do you listen to pastors and their interpretations? Are you being hypocritical now?
No, everything I read and everything I hear I always test against scripture. I don't change scripture to match an idea that I happen to like. I don't believe the Bible was written in an unknowable secret code, but for the explanation of men. I believe that Christianity is a revealed faith, and so I believe it is readable. So, when I read a commentary that is fully supported by the totality of scripture, I tend to find favor with it. Scripture is crippled when it is forced into the mold of the teachings of fallible men that do not match any idea of a common sense reading of the Bible.
The Bible tells us IF we persevere, IF we obey the commandments, we are IN Christ. Thus, the promise is for us, IF we continue to persevere in the Lord.
And yet none of these "Ifs" involve independent decisions apart from God, right? What determines all these "Ifs"? Our cooperation with God that doesn't come from us? Our free will decisions that don't come from us?
Now, substitute yourself into this scenario - "isn't it ironic that you are the one who presumes to know "who" spoke to you"?
No, I am free to presume about myself. I know my own experience, regardless if anyone else believes it. In addition, I have proof that satisfies me. (I doubt that satan would lead me to follow the Bible.)
Isn't that clear from loads of Scripture that WE are required to respond to God's graces of faith and repentance? Over and over, God's forgiveness is seen as conditional, based on our own turning to Him.
These are still more example of you implying that we make independent decisions for God. God gives us grace and then we are REQUIRED TO RESPOND ... Is God requiring something of Himself? God's forgiveness is CONDITIONAL on our turning to Him. Is God setting a condition on Himself? Both of these strongly imply independent action.
Christ has, in the same fashion, won salvation for men, but again, they must CHOOSE life, union with God (with the tools that God has given us, not by ourselves).
And still another example. If God only gives us tools then where does the rest come from? Tools don't make or accomplish anything, it is the user of the tools who does it. The user is independent from the tools. This goes against the idea that everything comes from God. For you, man is the user of the tools, the ultimate creator of his own salvation, even though he has tools from God.