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To: jo kus
That Mary was sinless, the entire Apostolic Church agrees on. HOW this happened, my Orthodox brothers are not sure - because they have not subscribed to Counciliar decisions after the Seventh one.

I may have forgotten to ask this before, but do you believe that Mary was conceived in the normal sense? Or, was God the "bio-Father" for Mary too? I just looked up the Protoevangelion again, and it seemed like it was a normal conception. So, how was this "Immaculate"? Does the whole thing rest on the fact that God declared that it would be so? If yes, then there were more "Immaculate" conceptions, right? (i.e. Sarah)

As all analogies, the cookie analogy is not complete to describe the relationship between us and God. In the physical world, a three year old daughter does not know that it is dangerous to her health that playing in the street. ... With God, though, WE CANNOT claim that lack of knowledge! We DO know.

Really? That's ridiculous! :) Yes, a three-year-old does not understand that playing in traffic might kill her. If you sat her down and told her that if she played in traffic that she would never see her mommy again, then she would decide not to play in traffic. That's full information. However, you say that we have enough knowledge of God to make a choice, and some choose against. So, even though the choice is between eternal torment and eternal blessings in Christ, some, with this full information, still choose hell? There is no comparison here. You can't make the cookie daughter wiser than the majority of humanity. ... Can you? :)

In other words, yes, the mother will let her daughter play in traffic - because the DAUGHTER knows it is against her mother's will, is against the Law of her conscience, and yet desires to do it anyway. She is still a daughter, but the daughter has disowned her mother by this action.

That is felony child endangerment, Joe! :) God wouldn't do that to His children, He loves us too much. Doesn't the Good Shepherd always take care of His sheep? Does He let any of them get lost? No, of course not! And, He would never let any of them stray onto the highway! :)

3,549 posted on 03/14/2006 3:04:43 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
I may have forgotten to ask this before, but do you believe that Mary was conceived in the normal sense? Or, was God the "bio-Father" for Mary too? I just looked up the Protoevangelion again, and it seemed like it was a normal conception. So, how was this "Immaculate"?

Physically, she was born the normal manner. Spiritually, she was prevented from contacting original sin - or from losing sanctifying grace.

However, you say that we have enough knowledge of God to make a choice, and some choose against. So, even though the choice is between eternal torment and eternal blessings in Christ, some, with this full information, still choose hell?

Brother, the choice presented to us depends on FAITH! It is NOT clear that a person who disobeys God will suffer eternal fire. EVEN IF this knowledge is made available by being taught Christian beliefs on this matter, it still requires faith that after one dies, one would go to hell - if they disobeyed a God that they cannot see. Faith is required to believe in this God AND to adhere to that promise of eternal hell (which we have no empirical evidence for). The daughter of our example, however, can be shown empirical evidence of the result of being struck by a car. The results do NOT require faith. Thus, "full knowledge" is based on faith, not on empirical evidence accessible to our senses.

That is felony child endangerment, Joe! :) God wouldn't do that to His children, He loves us too much. Doesn't the Good Shepherd always take care of His sheep? Does He let any of them get lost? No, of course not! And, He would never let any of them stray onto the highway! :)

Again, WHO are the sheep? The ones who hear His voice. We don't know who will continue to hear His voice into the future. Thus, we can only know whether we are CURRENTLY of the flock. God gives us a free will choice to hear His voice and to FOLLOW it. By following God's Will, we are making a free will decision to love God. That is what He desires. He desires our response to Him. God's ways are not our ways.

Regards

3,556 posted on 03/14/2006 11:55:11 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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