Yes, a man by himself is insufficient to be considered righteous. How can a man who abides in Christ do so if he is not of the elect? And, what does any of this have to do with being perfect in our actions while alive on earth? You've never heard that from me.
Again, the mother ALLOWS this daughter to be a secondary cause of how the cookies turn out. And I believe God does the same with us. He allows us to struggle through life, not fulfilling the Commandments perfectly, but struggling to abide in Him, ... He is in control, but He doesn't use that control to overtake our efforts.
I fully agree that God allows us to struggle, and that He allows many of the cookies we make to be misshapen. That's how we learn how to make cookies the right way, and this is a good thing in God's eyes. However, when it comes time to actually make the cookies, to turn the dough into cookies, the mother DOES overtake the daughter's efforts to help. The loving mother won't let the daughter anywhere near the hot oven. God keeps His elect out of the oven too! :)
However, "an offer they can't refuse"? You are presuming that a person TRUSTS God completely and totally from the get-go. Trust is learned.
No, the trust I am talking about is a grace from God. If you believe that this trust comes from ourselves, apart from God, then what exactly do we need from God to come to Him? No one can have belief without trust, therefore, it appears you are saying that our belief also comes from ourselves, apart from God.
But why is it necessary that we pray that the will of God be done, if God's will is ALWAYS done?
LOL! Pretty good, Joe. I think we are commanded to pray for God's will for similar reasons that we are to praise God in prayer. (Does God really need our praise?) It is for our benefit because it reminds us of who God is and what He has done for us, both for our salvation and in our day to day lives.
We will always battle the serpent - and he will try to get us to refuse the Lord.
On this there can be no doubt. For the elect, under my system, the serpent always loses in the end. It appears that under your system, the serpent sometimes wins, such as with those unfortunate missionaries you told me about.
FK: "All those who are saved are of the elect and all those of the elect will be saved."
A wonderful circular argument!
Wow! When you take it completely out of context like that, you're right. It sure sounds like it.
My statement was in direct response to your challenge: "You are equating "being saved" with being of the elect ...". You were implying that is wrong, and I was saying that I disagree and that it is right. The sinner's prayer CANNOT be ineffective for the elect. I notice that you never bothered to tell me which of the elect are not saved, and which of the saved are not of the elect. Surely, this should be easy for you, since I'm using circular reasoning.
FK: "We humans can't be absolutely certain about that for other people, but God provides that we may be sure about ourselves."
LOL!!! Which Protestant believes that that after saying the Sinner's Prayer, that they are not of the elect? The only one who believes it didn't work are those who judge other people after the fact when a person falls - "He was never saved to begin with" What device did God give that person to indicate that this person would falter?
The Bible. I hope that also gives you a good laugh. Ultimately, I don't judge the salvation of any particular person. I just answer hypotheticals based on scripture.
If you are wrong, your assurance is just delusional, correct? When IF Christ meant that a person must eat His flesh to be saved for eternal life? Have you received the Eucharist as HE implemented it at the Last Supper and practiced by Christians for 2000 years?
Yes, if I am wrong, then my assurance is most assuredly delusional. If Christ really meant, as you suggest, that a person has to partake of the Eucharist, with the Catholic meanings attached, in order to be saved, then I am toast. I am perfectly comfortable with all of this, because if I am wrong, then the Bible is wrong, and I am worshiping a false God anyway.
The point of this is that your assurances are based on presumptions. Presumptions that you will remain faithful until the end, that you will persevere, AND presumptions that your interpretations of Scripture are entirely in line with God's intent.
What you call presumptions, I call scripture. As for my interpretations, if God really did write mostly in secret code, to confound the elect, then my interpretations will be wrong. If, however, Christianity is a revealed faith, then the scripture is understandable to the elect. It appears that the scripture is almost completely useless to the average Catholic without a translation manual separately written by the Church.
FK: "I am certain that we will all face a judgment based on our walk in faith. Interestingly, my Pastor preached on this point yesterday. That makes two weeks in a row that his sermon has been directly on point in this thread. Maybe he's lurking. :) Anyway, no one on my side believes that we enter heaven without love. God gives the elect love, which we use to love Him back. He loved us first."
So then we are not saved by faith alone, correct? Furthermore, if we are judged on our walk, what happens if our walk was insufficient, for example, as Jesus describes on several occasions in Matthew 25 with three parables? Are those who are judged unworthy entering heaven?
To your first question, 'No', we are saved by grace through faith alone. I'm not sure what part of my paragraph you find contradictory. On my reference to judgment, I was only talking about rewards in Heaven, not salvation at all. As to the parables, the elect will be judged worthy and the non-elect will not. It is impossible for a member of the elect to have salvation, and then lose it for failing these parables.
God gives -- if asked. That's why we pray. If we don't get what we ask for it is because the prayer is empty or we pray with an evil heart.
We do not ask for His will to be done; we make a statement of trust in His goodness. When we pray and say "Thy will be done" it means whatever happens we trust in God's mercy and justice; that whatever happens to us and the world is mericful and just even if we don't see it that way.
Those whom we love we trust. We are told to love God with all our heart, mind and soul; if so, then we must trust Him the same way. What makes Christianity unique compared to all other religions is that our faith is love -- in those we love, we have faith; God above all. In love, we fulfill the law.
Pat the Protestant recites the Sinner's Prayer, very fervently, in December of 2000. She has no doubt in her mind that she is saved, that the "blood of Christ" has covered her sins and she is now of the elect. She walks strongly in the Lord's ways, growing in sanctification. She begins a transformation, slowly and gradually at first, but it is quite noticeable by all around her. She is not so angry anymore. She seems to be more patient and loving towards others, even when they are rude to her. The Pat of the past was never like this!
Well, this continues for several more years. She reads the Bible daily, is active at her community, attends Bible studies and is becoming more Christ-like. To all people, especially herself, Pat is DEFINITELY of the elect. She volunteers to be a missionary in a foreign country. She hears the Call of Christ (she believes) to go and convert the pagans. At any rate, to make a long story short, she falls away and reverts back to her old self. Sadly, she has come full circle and worse - since now she is frustrated that she has "wasted" so much of her life on following a God who seemed powerless to help innocent, desperate people.
My question to you addresses the failure of your theology. During those five years of Christianity, Pat was considered by ALL to be of the elect. She showed the fruit of being elect. She had a firm belief in the Lord, was knowledgeable about Scriptures, and gave of herself to others. It was clear that God HAD TO BE WORKING IN HER! And here is the crux of the matter : WHAT CAUSED PAT TO CHANGE SO MUCH DURING THOSE FIVE YEARS? See, people who know Pat will say "she was never saved to begin with". "She wasn't of the elect". This is BS. Scripture clearly tells us that no one can even say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit. NO ONE can do no good without Jesus Christ. And so, if this person had shown so many signs of Christ's presence, how is it that now you will tell me that someone like this NEVER HAD CHRIST TO BEGIN WITH? What explains those five years?
And along with this, how do YOU know you will not fall to the same temptations? See, the major problem with your doctrine is that it ASSUMES you are of the elect. The elect can never fall away - as the Bible states. So, you CLAIM to be of the elect. But yet, when people fall away, you don't know what to say or do.
"She never was saved to begin with" is plain dishonest and shows the fallacy of claiming to BE of the elect forever. All of our conversation returns to this presumption. All Scripture you give me. It is meant for the elect - however, we cannot KNOW we will be elect until judgment day. Even Christians will be judged based on our deeds. Those found wanting will NOT enter the Kingdom of God. Since a Protestant cannot point to an event that irrefutably guarantees their salvation for heaven, there is no point in claiming one is of the elect - until that day when they face Jesus Christ, and He says "enter into the Kingdom, my faithful servant".
I would also like to address another of your faulty religious beliefs that contradict itsef:
You wrote : I'm not sure what part of my paragraph you find contradictory.
we are saved by grace through faith alone.
no one on my side believes that we enter heaven without love.
Well, I don't understand how I can make this any clearer to you, but you contradict yourself... Either you are saved by faith alone, or you are saved by faith WITH love. If you have faith ALONE, then you don't have love. One can have faith WITHOUT love. Read James 2, for example, and see the charecter who has faith without love. The one who walks by his brother in need without a care in the world - BUT has faith!
Again, you are contradicting yourself, brother.
Regards