I am not comfortable with "on her own". ...
I thought that was your view. I have learned much from you, my brother. :)
However, the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception relies strictly on God's initiative - Mary was saved the loss of sanctifying grace at her birth. We believe that this gift and His continuing graces allowed Mary to remain sinless through out her life (which the Orthodox also believe). I believe our [Catholic/Orthodox] point of disagreement is not over whether Mary sinned or not, but how Mary was able to remain sinless. We believe God gave her a singular grace, along with Mary's own pure will (purified by God), while I believe the Orthodox think that Mary was sinless as a result of her raised theosis/divinization.
Yes, what I think I have learned from my Orthodox brothers is that Mary was born in the normal sense and did not sin because she did not have the capacity to sin as a small child. Then, at a tender age, perhaps three, she was given a special grace and there was "The Entrance". She entered the Church for the rest of her upbringing, and through this grace was thereby sinless from the age of reason forward.
[FK to Kosta:] "So, then to be absolutely clear, under your belief, God's love for us means that He prizes our freedom of choice for the eighty years or so that we "might" be on earth FAR AND ABOVE OVER where we will spend eternity. That is God's love for us."
The singer "Sting" said it best "If you love someone, set them free". What sort of freedom and eternal happiness is God giving a person by FORCING them to be in heaven?
Would the cookie mother love her daughter so much that she would set her daughter free to go play in traffic? That's what you are advocating. :) And, again, I disagree with the idea of God "forcing" people into heaven because the obvious connotation is that it is against their will. The gift of God to His elect is an offer they can't refuse, because God gives them the ability to agree that it is so good.
[continuing ...] I am detecting a fundamental difference between what you believe happens in heaven and what the Scriptures state. Heaven is not just an earthly paradise (like the Muslims think).
Heaven is total spiritual union with God. How is that going to happen if a person has totally separated themselves from God's love on this earth? God is granting what that person desires - an eternal life without Him AND showing His justice to us, as well.
And, ... just what part of the second paragraph do I disagree with (because I don't know :)? In what do you detect a disconnect?
Aw, shucks... Well, I appreciate your openness to listening to a point of view that you do not always disagree with. Most people would have gave up on me by now.
She entered the Church for the rest of her upbringing, and through this grace was thereby sinless from the age of reason forward.
That Mary was sinless, the entire Apostolic Church agrees on. HOW this happened, my Orthodox brothers are not sure - because they have not subscribed to Counciliar decisions after the Seventh one. I pray that some day that will change.
Would the cookie mother love her daughter so much that she would set her daughter free to go play in traffic? That's what you are advocating. :) And, again, I disagree with the idea of God "forcing" people into heaven because the obvious connotation is that it is against their will. The gift of God to His elect is an offer they can't refuse, because God gives them the ability to agree that it is so good.
Your response regarding the cookie analogy on "allowing the daughter to play in the street" is another answer that I am using to judge how our ideas of heaven are different (as I will respond below). As all analogies, the cookie analogy is not complete to describe the relationship between us and God. In the physical world, a three year old daughter does not know that it is dangerous to her health that playing in the street. Thus, the mother protects the child by forbidding the action.
With God, though, WE CANNOT claim that lack of knowledge! We DO know. Let me post this from Paul and I will comment:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions" Romans 1:18-26a
THIS is how God's wrath is manifest. He let's man have what they desire. If man imperfectly desires Goodness, God will grace Him and lead Him to Truth. If man refuses the writing of the Law on their hearts...
"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" Romans 2:14-15
...then they will be left to their vile passions. In other words, yes, the mother will let her daughter play in traffic - because the DAUGHTER knows it is against her mother's will, is against the Law of her conscience, and yet desires to do it anyway. She is still a daughter, but the daughter has disowned her mother by this action. Recall the Prodigal Son...
The gift of God to His elect is an offer they can't refuse, because God gives them the ability to agree that it is so good.
I think I should write a "macro" that states "we don't know we are of the elect", so I don't have to type it every letter I respond to you! Of course the elect will not refuse. But you don't know you are of the elect - since your Sinner's Prayer might not have taken. In ten years, you might fall away and then every Protestant will say you never had faith to begin with!
I wrote : Heaven is total spiritual union with God. How is that going to happen if a person has totally separated themselves from God's love on this earth? God is granting what that person desires - an eternal life without Him AND showing His justice to us, as well. And you responded : And, ... just what part of the second paragraph do I disagree with (because I don't know :)? In what do you detect a disconnect?
Oh, sorry for not clarifying. Going to heaven is not just a big party in where we show up and have a good ol' time. Heaven is a total union with God. Our will ENTIRELY MATCHES God's will. That is not possible if our free will chooses to turn away from God in a permanent fashion while on earth. WE are responsible for our decisions. Certainly, some decisions are not made with ALL information available. Thus, God will grant the invincibly ignorant :)some leeway when making His judgment on one's deeds. Thus, a person who has claimed "being saved" but turns from God CANNOT unite with this HOLY and DIVINE Nature for eternity.
Regards
Yes, what I think I have learned from my Orthodox brothers is that Mary was born in the normal sense and did not sin because she did not have the capacity to sin as a small child. Then, at a tender age, perhaps three, she was given a special grace and there was "The Entrance" [Forest Keeper]
Jo is right in the first part of his statement – Orthodox/Catholic disagree why, but not if she was sinless. God simply foreknew her choices from eternity. So there was no need for God to intervene. But we certainly share with our Catholic brothers the view, the only possible view, that she had to be sinless in her life, and by her own choice.
Catholics consider Immaculate Conception a unique Baptism, but do not assign BEV Mary any special or superhuman qualities by it any more than they would to any baptized individual – we are still subject to sin and death. Immaculate Conception is necessary because of the Augustinian view of the Fall to which the Catholic Church and all of Western Christianity, as a Roman Catholic derivative. The East never held that view and it was not a theological issue of schism as long as it was not proclaimed a Roman Catholic dogma in the mid 19th century.
So, ... under your belief, God's love for us means that He prizes our freedom of choice for the eighty years or so that we "might" be on earth FAR AND ABOVE OVER where we will spend eternity. That is God's love for us [FK to Kosta]
The alternative is worse, FK, because it suggests that God prizes our mindlessness more than our freedom. I have no doubt that God values our freedom of choice in His own way because anything else is coerced or compelled. And true love must well from within and not be created from without.
You see, the New Testament is like a beautiful rose that opened up and revealed its full beauty. It is in that Scripture that we begin to understand God as Trinity, a perfect loving relationship of three divine Hypostases in one divine Essence, a completely different God (from our POV) and a completely new theology altogether; same God, different level of knowledge of Him.
It is through the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ that we begin to relate to God personally and are indeed commanded to equate our belief with love and not with the Law. For if we love God, we will obey His commandments. The reverse is not true necessarily. So, the basis, the very foundation of our faith and what this is all about is love, love of God form us first and foremost and then our love for Him. One of my fortune cookies said "You will many loves, but only one true love." That would be God.
My point is that yes God cares about us and our freedom because only the free can claim not to be compelled. And we are truly elect of God if we come to Him on our free will, out of love. Can we fall in love on our own? Yes, of course we can. The more you learn about something, the more you feel drawn to it. Thus, God draws us to Him by love, but he does not violate our freedom. We are free to choose and He knows what our choices are.