So all men are saved, then??? The Bible says that Christ died for the sin of ALL men. EVERYONE. Despite your ignoring these Scriptures, it is so. And yet, we know that some people will not be saved. We know that Christ gave men the power to forgive sins, AFTER His resurrection, when His work was "complete", according to you. WHY? Christ died for the sin of the world, but it remains for us to actuallly repent. We continue to ask Christ for forgiveness of sin. He CONTINUES to intercede for us, as does His Spirit!
"the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" Romans 8:26
Present tense. Right now... Why would the Spirit be interceding for us NOW, after "it's all done"?
It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us Romans 8:34
Now, Christ is INTERCEDING right NOW? In the present? AFTER He died for our sins and said "It is finished"?
"Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them" Heb 7:25
Apparently, Paul has a different idea than you regarding what Christ had already done and what He CURRENTLY is doing.
Asking for forgiveness, after being saved, is an obedience to God, as He commands that we do so. It is for our own good, and when we obey Him we love Him. It is part of our sanctification.
So when God commanded us to ask for forgiveness, it wasn't so that He'd forgive us our sins? What exactly are we asking for? Why the evasion on God's part? Why don't we just ask Him for our "sanctification" (whatever that is for, in the mind of the Protestant, I don't know). Why does God give men the power to forgive sins AFTER His Resurrection? What is Paul talking about in 2 Cor 5 about the "ministry of reconciliation"? Is this all a sophisticated charade to mask what is really happening? If all my sins are forgiven before I even ask for forgiveness, then why aren't all men saved?
He already knew who would be saved and who would be lost. Yet, He spoke to many of the lost anyway. Why would He waste His time?
Say what? It's not a "waste of time" to reach out to people, those you love, even when you know they are heading down a path of being "lost".
"I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: [and] they walked in their own counsels. Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, [and] Israel had walked in my ways! " Ps 81:10-13
God PINES for us to turn to Him! Can't you hear His voice? The God of Love loves unconditionally - even His "enemies". He reaches out to ALL, the wicked and the righteous. "oh, if only they would listen to me". That says it all, brother.
He that is predestined to be of the elect will believe and not be condemned, etc
Come on. How many times have I said WE don't know we are of the elect? Is this really such a difficult concept? God foresees our actions, our responses to His initiative.
But your whole faith is based on a ping-pong salvation model. :) Confess today and you are saved. Commit mortal sin tomorrow and you are lost forever. Go back to confession the next day, and you are saved again. Don't you go back and forth again and again your whole lives? This seems inconsistent with what you are saying above.
It's not, because I was talking about MORTAL sins, not minor venial sins. People in Christ do not "pin-pong" back and forth between mortal sins and love of Christ. As to the rest, it is certainly Biblical...
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ez 18:21-24
Brother, isn't it clear that WE can come into righteousness, or come into wickedness, even after our Baptism/Sinner's Prayer?
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13
I know that we have different ideas of salvation, but when you say that a person's status can't be known until death, even if a hypothetical, then you are evading. I have been told by Catholics on this thread that if you commit a mortal sin, and never are forgiven, and there are no special "outs", then the person is lost. That's the ping-pong model.
What you give in the first sentence, you take away in the last. We have different ideas of the word "saved". We don't consider being saved as being irresistibly and infallibly marked for eternal life. Saved to us means we are healed. We have taken the first step to eternal heaven. This does not mean we will MAKE IT to heaven. Thus, our "salvation" here on earth, our Baptism, is not salvation for eternity, like it means for you. Thus, what "ping-pong" are you talking about? We never said we are "saved for heaven infallibly" to begin with!
My problem is that you are "simultaneously" (OH-HO) using God both inside and outside of time to suit your purposes. When you make a point, God is inside time and magically does what you need Him to do. Of course, when I make a point, God is magically outside of time and so nothing applies
I detect frustration. The problem is that you are mixing God's view with our view. Of course, God acts upon time - He created it. Thus, when He reaches into time from outside of it, from His NOW, He has entered a chronological point of view. However, to Him, this reaching into time occurs simultaneously as His other reachings into time. Have you considered the Creed "{Jesus} IS eternally begotten" What does that mean? Eternity is NOT a "long time"!!! It is ALL of time compressed into one event. Thus, while God is outside Time, He views our responses to various stimuli all as one action. He reaches into time (entering OUR chronology) through His graces. When He interacts with us, His grace enters time.
Thus, God reaches into time - Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection. But God is outside of time - the Crucifixion is ALWAYS PRESENT to Him. Thus, if we go to the beginning of this tome, and look at Christ INTERCEDING for us, Christ's one-time action is His PRESENT INTERCESSION, during His one NOW. And to us, in time, Jesus intercedes for man until the end of time. This is how during the Mass, Christ's Passion is re-presented to us.
Regards
Including those who commit the unpardonable sin? If Christ died for the sin of ALL men then aren't they justified before God?
So all men are saved, then??? The Bible says that Christ died for the sin of ALL men. EVERYONE. Despite your ignoring these Scriptures, it is so. And yet, we know that some people will not be saved.
Of course we both know that not all men are saved. The work of Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to pay the debt of all men, but it was only efficacious to the elect. The Bible NEVER, EVER states that Christ died for the sin of all men. It NEVER says this. I can prove it. From our earlier discussions of Romans 3:23 you taught me that "All men" never means "All men". Instead, it means a particular subset of all men. So, with that freedom that you taught me, I'll choose to say that all the verses you have lined up to say that Christ died for the sins of all men really, actually only apply to "All" of the elect. That way we remain consistent, "All" doesn't mean "All". :)
"the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" Romans 8:26
Present tense. Right now... Why would the Spirit be interceding for us NOW, after "it's all done"?
That is referring to intercession in prayer. We always need prayer throughout our lives. So, I agree with the tense. Here is my version:
Rom. 8:26 : In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
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It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us Romans 8:34
Now, Christ is INTERCEDING right NOW? In the present? AFTER He died for our sins and said "It is finished"?
I agree with you that He does. He answers our accusers and hears our pleas. At the time of judgment He will act as our personal lawyer and judge. (A very nice deal for the elect, BTW! :) When Christ died His work to pay for our sins was complete. No further payment, through good works, or receiving of sacraments, or anything else was required. But that doesn't mean that Jesus then exited our lives. He remains very active, IMO.
So when God commanded us to ask for forgiveness, it wasn't so that He'd forgive us our sins? What exactly are we asking for?
No, it was so that He would forgive our sins. Forgiveness of sins is necessary for salvation. After salvation, it is part of our sanctification, and is the will of God. The regenerated heart wants to obey, but we are not earning God points with each seeking of forgiveness.
Why does God give men the power to forgive sins AFTER His Resurrection?
He doesn't. :)
What is Paul talking about in 2 Cor 5 about the "ministry of reconciliation"?
Paul is saying that all believers should spread the good news of the Gospel to the unsaved. Notice that in 18 and 19 it is God who is doing all the reconciling, there is no "Co-".
If all my sins are forgiven before I even ask for forgiveness, then why aren't all men saved?
Good question. The answer is because only the sins of the elect are forgiven for all time. Christ didn't die to save the non-elect.
FK: "He already knew who would be saved and who would be lost. Yet, He spoke to many of the lost anyway. Why would He waste His time?"
Say what? It's not a "waste of time" to reach out to people, those you love, even when you know they are heading down a path of being "lost".
You take me completely out of context. Here was my full statement:
One thing Jesus was doing is teaching us that the whole world is a mission field from our POV. Of course, He already knew who would be saved and who would be lost. Yet, He spoke to many of the lost anyway. Why would He waste His time?
I was asking a rhetorical question. I was trying to show you that Jesus was teaching us how we should live by example. Jesus already knew that His words would fall on deaf ears among the lost, yet He spoke to them anyway. He was showing us what to do because we don't have His inside knowledge.
The God of Love loves unconditionally - even His "enemies".
I know that Jesus taught a principle to us that we should love our enemies, but do you believe it is absolute? Does God love satan?
Come on. How many times have I said WE don't know we are of the elect? Is this really such a difficult concept?
You've said it many times, and it is a difficult concept for me because I DO know. :)
[Re: Ez 18:21-24] Brother, isn't it clear that WE can come into righteousness, or come into wickedness, even after our Baptism/Sinner's Prayer?
Sort of, but I wouldn't use the word "can". I would say that after either a Baptism or a Sinner's Prayer (respectively), the elect "will" come into righteousness, and the non-elect "will" be in wickedness. I would say that's true for a Catholic or Protestant.
Saved to us means we are healed. We have taken the first step to eternal heaven. This does not mean we will MAKE IT to heaven. Thus, our "salvation" here on earth, our Baptism, is not salvation for eternity, like it means for you. Thus, what "ping-pong" are you talking about? We never said we are "saved for heaven infallibly" to begin with!
I got that idea from a conversation I had with another FR Catholic. It was probably on another thread, although I can't swear that I have ever been on another thread. :)
She told me, in essence, that once you confess your sins to a priest you are in a "saved" state, such that if you were hit by a bus walking home from the church you would be saved. However, upon the commission of the next mortal sin, you were then automatically transferred into a damned state until such time as you would have your next confession. There were standard "outs" that she and I discussed, such as what would happen if you got run over by a bus on your way to confession. :) Anyway, that's what made me think of this as a ping-pong effect. It appeared to me that salvation was won and lost, and won and lost all the time. So, that's where it comes from.