Replies

Therefore," says the Pelagian, "He foreknew who would be holy and immaculate by the choice of free will, and on that account elected them before the foundation of the world in that same foreknowledge of His in which He foreknew that they would be such. Therefore He elected them," says he, "before they existed, predestinating them to be children whom He foreknew to be holy and immaculate.

Harley, why didn't you continue with your quote from the Saint? The VERY NEXT SENTENCE you dropped explains the PELAGIAN VIEW in addition to what you wrote...

Certainly He did not make them so; nor did He foresee that He would make them so, but that they would be so

THIS is what Pelagius says...That God didn't make man good - but that man would BE so.

As usual, you cut and paste out of context, not giving us the FULL truth of the matter. It should be clear from the Council of Orange 2 and Trent that the Church does not teach that man can come to God alone, or that man can do anything good without God. "Certainly, God did not make man good" is the Pelagius view...

I hope you didn't drop that sentence purposely. It is not conducive in the search for the truth when you find it necessary to give partial quotations to back up your theology.

Regards

Augustine about Pelagius-"Certainly He did not make them so; nor did He foresee that He would make them so, but that they would be so"

Jokus about Augustine-THIS is what Pelagius says...That God didn't make man good - but that man would BE so.

To ensure I have not missed anything let's just take the entire passage...

"Therefore," says the Pelagian, "He foreknew who would be holy and immaculate by the choice of free will, and on that account elected them before the foundation of the world in that same foreknowledge of His in which He foreknew that they would be such. Therefore He elected them," says he, "before they existed, predestinating them to be children whom He foreknew to be holy and immaculate. Certainly He did not make them so; nor did He foresee that He would make them so, but that they would be so." Let us, then, look into the words of the apostle and see whether He chose us before the foundation of the world because we were going to be holy and immaculate, or in order that we might be so. "Blessed," says he, "be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us in all spiritual blessing in the heavens in Christ; even as He hath chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted." [Eph. 1.3.] Not, then, because we were to be so, but that we might be so. Assuredly it is certain,—assuredly it is manifest. Certainly we were to be such for the reason that He has chosen us, predestinating us to be such by His grace. Therefore "He blessed us with spiritual blessing in the heavens in Christ Jesus, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and immaculate in His sight, predestinating us in love to the adoption of children through Jesus Christ to Himself." Attend to what he then adds: "According to the good pleasure," he says, "of His will;" in order that we might not in so great a benefit of grace glory concerning the good pleasure of our will. "In which," says he, "He hath shown us favour in His beloved Son,"—in which, certainly, His own will, He hath shown us favour. Thus, it is said, He hath shown us grace by grace, even as it is said, He has made us righteous by righteousness. "In whom," he says, "we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace, which has abounded to us in all wisdom and prudence; that He might show to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure." In this mystery of His will, He placed the riches of His grace, according to His good pleasure, not according to ours, which could not possibly be good unless He Himself, according to His own good pleasure, should aid it to become so. But when he had said, "According to His good pleasure," he added, "which He purposed in Him," that is, in His beloved Son, "in the dispensation of the fullness of times to restore all things in Christ, which are in heaven, and which are in earth, in Him: in whom also we too have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things according to the counsel of His will; that we should be to the praise of His glory."

The error of Pelagius was to say God uses His foreknowledge to elected us before the foundation of the world by looking through that "corridor of time". Pelagius wanted to say it was that God looked down and saw who was good. You want to say that God looked down and saw who would accept Him. There isn't any difference.

The Orthodox just simply reject most of Augustine's teaching. However for the Catholics who supposedly revered Augustine it becomes more problematic.