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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; jo kus; Agrarian; kosta50
He ordained the fall of Adam

Where is that in the Scripture?

3,270 posted on 03/06/2006 7:27:26 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; jo kus; Agrarian; kosta50
FK-"He ordained the fall of Adam"

annalex-"Where is that in the Scripture?"

Proverbs 20:24. It's the one you said you didn't understand.

3,273 posted on 03/06/2006 8:00:43 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: annalex; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; jo kus; Agrarian; kosta50
HD: "He ordained the fall of Adam ..."

Where is that in the Scripture?

I'm sure many places, in addition to Harley's Prov. 20:24, here is another one:

Eph. 1:11 : In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, ... (emphasis added)

"Everything" would include the fall of Adam. Here is an excerpt from an article called "Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?" on the Monergism website that speaks to this:

"God did not coerce Adam to commit sin and fall, but he certainly ordained it. Even an Arminian who thinks that God merely allowed the fall, must admit that before God created the world he already knew what the future would be, and so it was within his Providence for such events to take place, for he could just have easily decided to prevent the fall...but He didn't. But we believe that while God did not make man sin [coercively] he certainly ordained such events to occur. Consider that if God did not decree the fall then evil is something completely outside His sovereign control ... If evil came into the universe by surprise for God, totally apart from His providence, then there are some things He does not know or things He is powerless over and therefore God would, by definition, lack omniscience and omnipotence. And then how do we know whether He will be able to defeat evil in the future if evil is outside God's control even though the Scripture plainly says that God ordains all events that come to pass (Eph 1:11)."

"As for how it could be that God decreed the fall. Obviously it is ultimately for His glory. In it He showed to the angels and all creation His manifest wisdom, justice and mercy and all of His perfections. He does not operate people like puppets. Adam freely chose to rebel ... God did not coerce him... and now fallen men freely choose to reject Christ, apart from grace. You ask, how could God ordain evil? Well, let me give you a clear biblical example which shows that he does, so you don't think I am just blowing smoke."

"Consider that Christ's crucifixion was a certainty which God [planned] in eternity and prophesied would come to pass in the Old Testament. But also consider that men would freely choose to crucify the Son of God. See Acts 2:23 which brings the two together -- "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." This concurrent series of events taking place simultaneously is called compatibilism, which is how the Scriptures really answer this question."

"So God foreordained the most evil event in history, the crucifixion, yet He lays blame for it completely on the choice of godless men, according to this passage. You must embrace the teaching in the Scriptures that God ordained an innocent man's death at the hands of sinners, yet they freely did so because they wanted to. You may not understand how God works in such a way without coercion, but you must submit to the fact the the Holy Scripture, through and through, teaches this quite matter-of-factly. Why does God do this? Well, for one, after the crucifixion event we now begin to understand that Christ did this for the good of His people, though we may not have seen it at the time. Prior to His execution, the disciples were told by Jesus, "you do not now understand what I am doing" and even Peter tried to dissuade Him. However, God used evil for good and did so blamelessly."

"There is a similar idea in Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

3,426 posted on 03/10/2006 5:41:00 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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