Replies

Again, you are having a problem with time.

I've got....... a temporal fever....... and the only cure is........ MORE COWBELL! :)

--------------- :)

Christ's sacrifice on the cross forgives ALL men's sins potentially, the elect and the damned.

In John 19:30, what does Christ mean by "It is finished"? I read that the Greek word means "paid in full", as opposed to potentially.

Consider the Lord's Prayer. God's forgiveness is conditional.

Very debatable, but I don't buy it. If God's forgiveness is conditional, then you are setting up a two-way covenant. Many moons ago, you burned me fair and square with the Mosaic Covenant, but you never mentioned the New Covenant as being two-way. :) I know you believe that if your sins are not forgiven that you are not going to heaven, so this IS a salvational issue. How is this reconciled?

But another point to consider, my brother, is that sin is not only a legal status, but also an ontological stance. We actually suffer, our human dignity, suffers as a result of sin. We are held slaves to it. We are wounded by its effects.

On all of this, I have no doubt. What surprises me is that I thought you had an aversion to ideas of us being either "slaves to sin" or "slaves to righteousness". Or, am I taking you out of context?

FK: "Does this mean no one is in Christ Jesus until he confesses his last sin before he dies?"

Is someone in Christ when a Christian murders or commits adultery? You be the judge. There is more to being a Christian than a name. Only those who DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN shall enter the Kingdom.

You mean like David, on both counts? He certainly wasn't ACTING in Christ when he did those things, but by your own statement, where is David today? Yes, David asked forgiveness. Is your view that he was damned from the time he committed all those sins until he asked forgiveness of God? Could Jesus have been the "Son of" a damned person, had David not used his free will to confess and seek forgiveness? Here is where we go back to the "time" and "simultaneous" issue, so I'll hold until I read your response to my earlier post. :)

"In John 19:30, what does Christ mean by "It is finished"? I read that the Greek word means "paid in full", as opposed to potentially."

Nope, Tetelestai means "It has been finished". There is no interpretation of that word which can torture it into meaning "paid in full". Where did you get that idea?

In John 19:30, what does Christ mean by "It is finished"? I read that the Greek word means "paid in full", as opposed to potentially

It means that God's redemptive work in time has been accomplished, completed, finished. That God, through Divine Economy, made our salvation possible.

I have already told you more than once, FK, that God's work is finished and that He does not wait for us to make decisions to fulfill His plan.

In John 19:30, what does Christ mean by "It is finished"? I read that the Greek word means "paid in full", as opposed to potentially.

Yes, it is paid in full. All we have to do now it to go to the bank and withdraw against this infinite account. We do it all the time when we ask for forgiveness. IF it was done in the sense that we no longer have to ask forgiveness or receive Christ's graces applied to us, then why would Jesus say :

"Receive ye the Holy Spirit; 23unto those whose sins ye release, they shall be released; [and] unto those whose [sins] ye retain, they shall be retained.

John 20:22-23

Or why would Paul write :

"I Paul am made a minister, who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fulfill in my flesh that which [is] lacking of the tribulations of the Christ for his body's sake, which is the church" Col 1:23-24

We require Christ's objective redemption applied to our specific selves - called subjective redemption. Christ died for the sin of ALL men. Everyone. But not everyone is saved. Thus, the subjective redemption - that person - did not apply Christ's gifts to his own self through repentance and conversion.

Very debatable, but I don't buy it. (God's forgiveness is conditional)

"The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye and believe the Gospel" Mark 1:15 Doesn't this imply that we have the choice to do one or the other? I don't have the energy to post all the verses that talk about those who choose to reject God's graces and NOT repent and believe... but here is one: "He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" John 3:18

Thus, forgiveness of sins is based on REPENTING. It is conditional, brother.

If God's forgiveness is conditional, then you are setting up a two-way covenant. Many moons ago, you burned me fair and square with the Mosaic Covenant, but you never mentioned the New Covenant as being two-way. :) LOL! Christ consecrated the New Covenant at a PASSOVER FEAST commemorating the Exodus of Moses and the Israelites. He chose that context for many reasons. But one is that we must turn to God and ask for the forgiveness of our sins - which Jesus offers as part of this covenant. IF Forgivness was not conditional, then ALL men would be saved - no one is in hell - because Christ died FOR ALL MEN, not just the elect.

What surprises me is that I thought you had an aversion to ideas of us being either "slaves to sin" or "slaves to righteousness". Or, am I taking you out of context?

Things are not black and white. I think Paul is talking more about a general way of acting, not our each and every sin or good deed moves us in and out of being slaves to sin, or slaves to righteousness. Does the latter become the former EVERY TIME THEY SIN, and vice versus? This would be a DAILY back and forth! Thus, one venial sin doesn't kill the soul.

Is your view that he was damned from the time he committed all those sins until he asked forgiveness of God?

We have different views of "being saved", as I have painfully told you. How could David be damned if he hadn't died yet before his contrition. He was in an "unrighteous status" with God. He was not considered righteous in God's eyes as a result of his sin. But when he returned to God, David was restored (this is from David's point of view. God already knew David would be sorrowful. But the Scripture speaks from David's view sometimes. Being that David was of the elect, God knew David would return.)

Here is where we go back to the "time" and "simultaneous" issue, so I'll hold until I read your response to my earlier post.

God saw David in his mother's womb, In the shepherd's field, slaying Goliath, committing adultery, morning over his sick infant, weeping over Absalom, and dying all at once. What's the problem? God saw David's return to Him within time.

Regards