[jo kus]

So man comes to God through his will, yet Adam's perfect will rejects God??? If Adam's perfect will would reject God why do you think we, with our imperfect will would accept Him?

The Scriptures clearly state that it is MAN'S will that makes the decision - guided by God, instructed by Him, created and even moved by God. Genesis 3 doesn't mention anything about God's will in Adam, but ADAM'S decision to eat the fruit. Just because God created Adam's will doesn't mean it was perfect. You are again presuming that God created us without love in mind.

I wrote : they obviously followed Him - but they were having a difficult time in changing their paradigm based on faith.

You responded : That's not what Luke 9:44-45 states. It plainly states that God commanded and God concealed the matter from them.

Why are you saying that? The Scriptures don't say anything about GOD hiding something!

"But they did not understand this word, and it was hid from them that they should not understand," Luke 9:45.

You are presuming that God ACTIVELY HID SOMETHING. However, the fact that the world was the third planet revolving around a star was ALSO "hidden" from them - meaning that it was UNDISCOVERED yet - as I said, their paradigm couldn't comprehend a Risen Suffering Servant. I don't find anything REQUIRING one to think that GOD HIMSELF would actively hide knowledge. Again, God allows us to figure things out in science AND theology, under His guidance.

Here is what Barnes says about it: ...In this way it was hid from them--not by God, but by their previous false belief (triumphant savior, not suffering servant - my addition). And from this we may learn that the plainest truths of the Bible are unintelligible to many because they have embraced some belief or opinion before which is erroneous, and which they are unwilling to abandon.

You'll find even the Catholic Church interprets the meaning here to be symbolic for God covering the sins of Adam and Eve.

That's one interpretation, a spiritual one, certainly. I wasn't sure what you meant.

Now where did he get this wisdom from? To help you; Pro 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Of course we get Wisdom from the Lord. But receiving knowledge and understanding DOES NOT mean that my WILL will follow it! That doesn't mean WE don't make decisions. The parable doesn't mention anything about God FORCING the man back to his father. If the parable is about the Kingdom, wouldn't you think Christ would have mentioned that God FORCED the man (since he was of the "elect") back home? God doesn't work that way. He places wisdom within us. But we can refuse that wisdom. We can deny it. We can follow our will that tells us to NOT follow God's will - to suffer, to sacrifice, to turn from sin. God will reward us based on HOW we listen to this wisdom. What would be the point of judgment if God moved us irrestibly to do His will? There is no justice there.

The parable clearly says that the man made the choice, not God. God put within the man the ability to repent, but it is the man who is repenting, it is the man who is returning home - under his own volition.

Regards

[HarleyD]

The Scriptures clearly state that it is MAN'S will that makes the decision - guided by God, instructed by Him, created and even moved by God.

Let's see...God give man his will...God guides that will...What will be the outcome???

Why are you saying that? The Scriptures don't say anything about GOD hiding something!

Luk 9:44-95 "Let these words sink into your ears; for the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men." But they did not understand this statement, and it was

concealed from them so that they would not perceive it

; and they were afraid to ask Him about this statement.

Seems plain to me.

I don't find anything REQUIRING one to think that GOD HIMSELF would actively hide knowledge.

Luk 8:10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

Amo 8:11 "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord GOD, "When I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine for bread or a thirst for water, But rather for hearing the words of the LORD.

Luk 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

I know you don't like to be inundated with scripture but verses like these are scattered all over the Bible.

Here is what Barnes says about it: ...In this way it was hid from them--not by God

Yes, I'm familiar with the typical Arminian arguments of, "It can't possibly mean so-n-so." It's just an alteration of scripture to fit a particular soteriology. John Gill states:
"...and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not; the true meaning of this saying was hid from their understanding, which was veiled with the above notion of the worldly grandeur of the Messiah, that they did not take it in;"

John Gill seems capable of reading what is precisely written. The text says it was hid from their eyes. God's the one who gives understanding. God hid it from their eyes. It seems simple enough.

What would be the point of judgment if God moved us irresistibly to do His will? There is no justice there.

There is no justice as YOU perceive justice. I would submit that our sense of "justice" is skewed. God will deal with every man accordingly in judgment and it will be perfectly just.

What precisely is G-R-A-C-E? Is grace something that God just casually tosses around or is it much more valuable than that? God didn't give grace to the Egyptians. God gave grace to the Israelites.