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To: jo kus
Even non-believers can follow the law written in their hearts by God to do good once in awhile.

Of course. Our Lord Jesus even stated that those being evil can give good gifts. But that is not what will make a person right with God. There is only ONE work of God and that is to believe on the Lord Jesus. (John 6:28-29)

See my tagline. There are many more verses like it.

Sure, there are verses like Deut 30 all over the place. They are often followed by verses like Deut 31 that states the people won't do it. Consider this interesting passage of scripture that highlights this problem:

Here our Lord Jesus commands His disciples to understand these particular words and yet God conceals the words from them. It was only AFTER the resurrection did they recall all of this according to God's plan. God tells us things and then if it's in His divine will He'll conceal it.

HD-And what do they make their decision on if not intelligence? Jokus-The will.

And who gives you your will?

And we (Catholic and Orthodox) believe that Christ did go down into Hades during His time in the tomb and bring back Adam.

Wow! I missed those verses. :O)

Adam's sin was no different than our sin. God covered him right on the spot. We die once and then comes judgment-not a special holding tank for us to take a refresher course. Certainly the rich man in the parable of the rich man and Lazzarus didn't get a "second" chance.

As far as the Prodigal Son goes, it seems to me that the son "came to his senses" and returned. Who brought him to his senses?

3,153 posted on 03/02/2006 5:51:15 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD
Our Lord Jesus even stated that those being evil can give good gifts. But that is not what will make a person right with God. There is only ONE work of God and that is to believe on the Lord Jesus. (John 6:28-29)

True. But "to believe" encompasses more than just the intellect. We are called to Love God with all of our heart, soul, and spirit. Not just make a mental assent of the intellect.

They are often followed by verses like Deut 31 that states the people won't do it.

Who is "they"? ALL men? Or just the wicked? The Psalms talk about this quite often.

Here (Luke 9"44-45) our Lord Jesus commands His disciples to understand these particular words and yet God conceals the words from them. It was only AFTER the resurrection did they recall all of this according to God's plan. God tells us things and then if it's in His divine will He'll conceal it.

I see this as another example of God not crushing us with His Will, but giving us free will to choose Him and to come to a decision based on FAITH, not on the certainty of God's OVERWHELMING WILL. Christ noted that the Pharisees would NOT believe because their hearts were closed to Him. See, there is some sort of cooperation between WHO believes and WHO doesn't. The Apostles in this case did not have closed hearts - they obviously followed Him - but they were having a difficult time in changing their paradigm based on faith.

Let's be fair. Before the Resurrection, WHO would have thought that God would become a man and DIE on a cross? You would have even been better served in your quote of Luke by going to Mark's Gospel and noting THREE times that the Disciples STILL had questions AFTER the resurrection. Resurrection is a concept that boggles the mind. I think the Apostles can be forgiven for their questions.

My point is that God does not overwhelm our nature with His grace. Even the Apostles - who must have been blessed - still had problems understanding Christ.

And who gives you your will?

God gives me my will - I didn't create myself. But as I note above, people's wills are not moved irresistibly by God. The Pharisees' will was to reject the Gospel. Did God force the Pharisees not to believe?

Wow! I missed those verses. :O)

Where does the Scripture say that Adam was eternally damned?

Adam's sin was no different than our sin.

REALLY? I wouldn't expect that from you. Wasn't Adam created in the image and likeness of God, without the taint of sin, concupiscence, or clouded intellect and will? I would say that Adam's sin was QUITE more culpabable than our sins.

God covered him right on the spot.

With animal skins?

We die once and then comes judgment-not a special holding tank for us to take a refresher course.

Your opinion, of course. I will presume you are not speaking of experience. Why does Peter (and the Nicean Creed) say that Christ descended into Hades (Hell)?

Certainly the rich man in the parable of the rich man and Lazzarus didn't get a "second" chance.

The first is utter speculation. The second is likely, because the parable describes the rich man not being a man who walked in faith of God. By the way, we don't get a second chance in Purgatory, in case you are thinking that. Only the saved go there to be purified.

As far as the Prodigal Son goes, it seems to me that the son "came to his senses" and returned. Who brought him to his senses?

What does the PARABLE say? Don't tell me your speculation, tell me what the Bible says. (I find myself laughing that I am telling you that)

To help you, it says "But when he came to himself" Luke 15:17

God is not mentioned - but we can safely assume that God was involved. (as Phil 2:12-13 states) The point is that "He who made you without your own self will not justify you WITHOUT yourself" St. Augustine...

Regards

3,157 posted on 03/02/2006 8:57:01 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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