[HarleyD]

There are a few minor technical differences but they all spring from the same fountain of free will. Consider this statement:

Thus Roman Catholics and Arminians walk hand in hand on this central issue.

Among the "decrees" of the Council of Trent (1563), which is the standard of the Roman Catholic Church, we find the following statement about freedom of the will written in opposition to the most critical recovered biblical doctrine of the Reformation:

"If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed"!

"If anyone shall affirm, that since the fall of Adam, man’s freewill is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing titular, yea a name, without a thing, and a fiction introduced by Satan into the Church; let such an one be accursed"!

In other words, although many evangelicals differ from Rome on the critical doctrine of Sola Fide (Faith Alone), so I fully embrace them as brothers and sisters (lest you think I don't), yet a large number of us have abandoned the biblical/Reformation principle of Sola Gracia (Grace Alone) since many believe that ultimately, salvation rests on whether or not they cooperate with God. This is just bad theology and it affects our view of God's sovereignty because the modern view sees man as ultimately choosing his salvation rather than God. The Reformation position on freewill was one of the core doctrinal reasons where Protestants differed and broke off from Catholicism. Have evangelicals gone full circle and abandon the very truths for which we recovered during the Reformation?

So what did the Reformers teach on free will? Lets have a look at what Augustine and the Reformers had to say. (Doctrines that are solidly grounded in the scripture. 1 Cor. 2:14, Rom 8:7, Romans 3:10-12)...)

Saint Augustine writes, that freewill, without God's grace and the Holy Ghost, can do nothing but sin. "He argued that fallen man still has a free will (liberium arbitrium) but has lost his moral liberty (libertas). The state of original sin leaves us in the wretched condition of being unable to refrain from sinning. We still are able to choose what we desire, but our desires remain chained by our evil impulses. He argued that the freedom that remains in the will always leads to sin. Thus in the flesh we are free only to sin, an empty freedom indeed. Therefore we are not only partly dependent upon grace for our conversion but totally dependent upon grace." ( R.C Sproul on Augustine)...also see Augustine's "A Treatise On The Predestination Of The Saints"

John W. Hendryx

[jo kus]

Among the "decrees" of the Council of Trent (1563)

"...If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification...let him be accursed."

Saint Augustine writes, that freewill, without God's grace and the Holy Ghost, can do nothing but sin.

Seems like they are saying nearly the same thing. Without God, we do not have the free will to choose Him. And without God, we do not become saved. I can quote Fathers from even before St. Augustine that say we require God's Grace to be saved. This is nothing new. We aren't Pelagianists. We cannot choose God without God. But as St. Augustine says, God does not save us without us. Somehow, there is a cooperation. But it is not a 99%/1% ratio or anything like that. Perhaps that is what throws you off. We believe that God doesn't need us at all regarding our salvation - but He choses to allow us to participate. Much like the mother/daughter cookie analogy that I have told here. God's love allows us to participate in a secondary manner. St. Augustine did write about secondary causes, correct?

In the flesh, we are free to sin - but this means that we cannot do enough to be saved of our own works. People can and do things that are not sinful - but it is never enough to earn salvation. This, too, is clear in both OT and NT. In other words, we will never choose God's ways without God. Also, we aren't "hand in hand" with the Armenians - as we DO believe in predestination...

Wow, we are on topic of this thread. How about that?

Regards