Well, even a busted clock ... :)
FK: "I never claimed that everyone who claimed to be of the elect actually was. We both know that cannot be true.
Applied to oneself, why isn't this true? How does a person "KNOW" he is of the elect when he cannot see God's view? Apparently, you believe that we cannot know absolutely that we are saved - we agree. However, we should have "confidence" and "hope" that WE are following Christ. I do not believe, however, that this makes us of the Elect.
We know we are of the elect to the extent we accept that God's promises in the Bible are true. Because I am human I cannot have the same assurance that God has about myself, but I can still live in confidence that the many descriptions in the Bible of a saved person "generally" match me to date, so I believe I am saved at this moment. I am not of the elect because I declare it. God declares it in His word.
This [FK's summary of what he thought was the Catholic position] sounds like a Calvinist definition of free will. It is incorrect. Free will is NOT making a decision APART from God. It is making the correct decision with God's help. Free will is choosing one or the other, but this doesn't require that God is not part of the decision making process. The above definition is Pelagianism, a teaching declared a heresy some 1500 years ago.
I must admit that I am puzzled by what you think a Calvinist and a Pelagian would have in common. :)
When I say "apart" from God, I don't mean in opposition, I mean "separate from". I'm trying to express that I think you believe that man uses something from only himself in order to cooperate with God. If you thought that everything came from God then you would agree with me. Instead, you think that "something" comes from ourselves "apart" from God. That's all I mean.
I am here if you want to learn more!
And I have appreciated our conversation very much. :)
We decide, but it is God's graces that help us make the right decision - see Phil 2:12-13. Note the cooperation and how I AND God am doing something when I make a decision.
It seems like you focus on verse 12 and I on verse 13. :)
OOPS! You almost had it! "That means I won't either". That is presuming that one is of the elect without special knowledge.
I am only presuming that God keeps His promises. I suppose we must see His promises very differently. "No man can" does not at all mean "no man can", etc.
God Bless.
We can have a guarded confidence that we are of the elect. As you mention, the things that we do are not the determinant of whether we are of the Elect. We can only have a general idea, an optimistic hope, that our faith working in love is proof that God really IS working within us and transforming us into another Christ. But the end of the road is unseen to us - it is based upon faith that WE will be faithful to the end - of course, if we are of the elect, God will be faithful. This whole discussion is to merely refute "absolute assurance" of salvation. We cannot know that. But we can have a very good idea that we are of the elect IF we were to die today...presuming we honestly appraise our relationship with God.
When I say "apart" from God, I don't mean in opposition, I mean "separate from".
I understood it that way. And I continue to say that free will does not mean we make a decision "separate from" God. Recall Phil 2:12-13 again.
I'm trying to express that I think you believe that man uses something from only himself in order to cooperate with God. If you thought that everything came from God then you would agree with me. Instead, you think that "something" comes from ourselves "apart" from God. That's all I mean.
EVERYTHING that we have is from God, whether in the natural world or in the supernatural. Thus, when we make a decision, God is involved in some manner. HE formed the intellect, He formed our will. Yet, God does not overwhelm our nature with His Grace. We can allow His graces to move our will to fall in vain upon us. When we make a decision, there is our concupiscence fighting against the goodness that God has placed inside of us as a result of our Baptism and the subsequent graces He gives us. As we mature as Christians, God graces us more and more and we cooperate more and more by saying "Yes" to God more often. It is a cycle of transformation. But in the end, each decision can also yield a "no" - this is proof enough that man has free will. IF a person who has undergone the washing of sins, is justified in God's eyes - can still sin - doesn't this mean that EVEN IN THIS STATE, we are free to sin or not to sin? Certainly, God helps us to avoid sin. But even among the most holy, sin is still a threat.
I am only presuming that God keeps His promises.
God didn't promise to YOU directly! He promised to His elect. I don't find a passage anywhere in the Scriptures that tells me "Joe, when he will be baptized, is of the elect". Certainly, just because we are baptized doesn't mean we are of the elect, either! We have already agreed on that. So what point do we then "KNOW" we are of the elect? We can never know completely until our death! If a person can fall away, potentially, then we can NOT know we are ABSOLUTELY ASSURED personally of salvation. The Bible promises the ELECT will be saved. We must be careful in giving ourselves this title based on subjective feelings within us - feelings that change with time.
Regards