[HarleyD]

But the simple fact that we have those brief periods of following our fleshy selves (or longer periods...) should be enough evidence to convince you that you DO have free will to NOT choose God. If God steered you on every action, you wouldn't sin.

Free will when? As believers? We can make choices to follow God or grieve/quench the Holy Spirit but from our sin we learn lessons and grow stronger. It is all calculated into God’s redemptive plan for our lives. He is not surprised by our sin and He knows what it takes to get us back on the right track. Our problem is that we are in a rush. Sometimes a person will live in sin for years. God will bring about the events that will cause that person to repent even though it may take decades. Abraham and Moses weren’t called until they were in the ‘70s.

My argument is with those who believe they are ABSOLUTELY saved. I believe we know too many people who have made that claim - and then fall away. Yes, the Word of God says that we can be assured we will be saved, but I think that this presumes we will continue along our path

We cannot know the status of anyone and are told REPEATEDLY in the scriptures not to judge. No one knows anyone’s heart except God. People get so excited to see celebrities announce their faith and then are sorely disappointed when three years later those same people are shacked up with someone’s wife. It “appears” they lost their salvation. God chastised Samuel for looking at appearances.

In the end all that ANY of us can do is look to our own salvation. We can rest in our faith trusting that Christ will keep what we have entrusted to Him. We’re the only one who truly knows our hearts and attitude towards God, how we came to know the Lord and how God has kept us on the path through all these years.

No, I think I'll just disagree and leave it at that! We are closing in on 3000 posts...

Awww….c’mon. I’m hoping that God has predestined this for 5,000 posts. :O)

We REALLY find Christ in our self-denials... It is too easy to convince oneself that he is a Christian. Actions speak louder than words. Faith is seen. To follow Christ, we must "become" another Christ.

In a way I would agree; it far too easy to sit back and not do anything. But different people interrupt this differently. Some believe simply throwing a few coins in the collection plate is enough while others flagellate themselves and literally hang themselves on crosses one a year to “share” in Christ’s suffering. How much is enough?

I would say that we find Christ in our weaknesses. It is recognizing we are unable to keep God’s standards that make us fall to our knees and beg for mercy. Anything that we do is because of Christ-not ourselves.

How many people made it out of Egypt, Harley? How many were "saved" from the Pharaoh? Many thousands, according to Scripture.

According to scripture these were all “unbelievers” that God saved from Pharaoh and never trusted God for His salvation (see Psalms 78:22). The only reason He brought them out of Egypt was because of His promise to Abraham. God personally promised and raised up their children to follow Him (Duet 1:39) into the Promise Land. And it wasn’t based upon their “free choice”. The people “repented” and tried to run into the Promise Land to carry out God’s order much to their demised.

[jo kus]

Free will when? As believers? We can make choices to follow God or grieve/quench the Holy Spirit but from our sin we learn lessons and grow stronger.

As believers, yes. We SHOULD learn lessons and grow stronger, but I know of people whom the opposite had happened. The point of "testing" us is pretty clear. Some will be found wanting.

In the end all that ANY of us can do is look to our own salvation. We can rest in our faith trusting that Christ will keep what we have entrusted to Him. We’re the only one who truly knows our hearts and attitude towards God, how we came to know the Lord and how God has kept us on the path through all these years.

We should help others, but we can't know their status with God. I think sometimes we don't even know our OWN status! Sin clouds our vision. I am not so sure that people fully know their own hearts and attitudes. It is much too easy to "sincerely" think you are on the right path. Consider all of the various cults, members who vividly believe they are heaven-bound and all else are going to hell. They sincerely believe this - and they fool themselves. Man can very easily do this. That is why we should approach Jesus more humbly - rather than as a person "already saved" for heaven.

Some believe simply throwing a few coins in the collection plate is enough while others flagellate themselves and literally hang themselves on crosses one a year to “share” in Christ’s suffering. How much is enough?

To the first, like I said before, people can convince themselves quite easily of their righteousness or status in God's eyes. Of the latter, the Church has always said that bodily mortification should be done under the supervision of a spiritual advisor. Too easy to become proud in those or get carried away. I have found that each culture views such things differently, so I don't look down too much on such. I find it strange, but if it brings them closer to God, then so be it.

I would say that we find Christ in our weaknesses. It is recognizing we are unable to keep God’s standards that make us fall to our knees and beg for mercy. Anything that we do is because of Christ-not ourselves.

That is true, but only the first step. We cannot hope to come to Christ unless we put aside the desires of the flesh, as Paul tells us. It is one thing to say abstractly "It's all God", and quite another to give until it hurts, or go out of your way to help someone else, or to serve another in humility, even when they treat you poorly. All of that is being Christ-like. It is much more than recognizing that God deserves all praise!

According to scripture these were all “unbelievers” that God saved from Pharaoh and never trusted God for His salvation

That is an "after-action" report! However, after all of the Jews came through the Red Sea, didn't they commit to the covenant when Moses brought them the Decalogue? Weren't they solemnly affirming the Lord God and to follow His Commandments? Didn't they build the Ark of the Covenant for Him? Didn't they SEE the power of God, not only in the Reed Sea crossing, but in the manna from heaven and water from the rock? Yet, they continued to grumble - they lost their faith. All of these "saved" people were punished by NOT seeing the promised Land (which Christians see as a typology of our journey to heaven).

No, Paul is pretty clear that those Jews who died were not unsaved heathen rabble going along for the show. They were "SAVED" Jews, saved from the sin of slavery of Egypt through the waters of "regeneration"... However, MANY fell away - they built a Golden Calf, they complained, they worshiped idols. And they died without finding "rest". Paul sets this up as an example to persevere. Look at 1 Cor 10:12 - this is not being said to unbelievers!

Regards

[Forest Keeper]

Awww….c’mon. I’m hoping that God has predestined this for 5,000 posts. :O)

What, are you kidding? What do we need, a measly 63,000 more posts to set an all time record? Peanuts! I'm just getting warmed up! :)