[HarleyD]

Happy new year to you as well N.O.

I wouldn’t say Saint Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, Ephraem, or Gregory got the idea of Mary being the “Queen of Heaven” from reading the scripture. I think they erroneously reasoned 1) God is King, 2) our Lord Jesus is His Son, 3) Mary is our Lord Jesus’ mother; therefore Mary is Queen. This reasoning, IMHO, is flawed. Mary may have been the physical mother of Jesus but that’s as far as it goes.

It is a mistake to think that the early church fathers, for all the wonderful guidance they provided, did not have their theological flaws. Many of these men came from pagan and idolatrous environments. They did not have the luxury of 2000 years of writings to refer to (which, btw, we still can’t seem to get our doctrine right).

Athanasius had his faults. Criticism of Athanasius follows:

The tactics of Athanasius, while often downplayed by church historians, were a significant factor in his success. He did not hesitate to back up his theological views with the use of force. In Alexandria, he assembled an "ecclesiastical mafia" that could instigate a riot in the city if needed. It was an arrangement "built up and perpetuated by violence." (Barnes, 230). Along with the standard method of excommunication he used beatings, intimidation, kidnapping and imprisonment to silence his theological opponents. Unsurprisingly, these tactics caused widespread distrust and led him to being tried many times for "bribery, theft, extortion, sacrilege, treason and murder. (Rubenstein, 6) While the charges rarely stuck, his reputation was a major factor in his multiple exiles from Alexandria.

He justified these tactics with the argument that he was saving all future Christians from hell. Athanasius stubbornly refused to compromise his theological views by stating, "What is at stake is not just a theological theory but people's salvation." (Olson, 172). In this assertion that violence was justified in defense of theology and the church, Athanasius, some hold, laid the foundation for theological concepts such as just war and the inquisition.

This criticism must be balanced by the wonderful and charitable work Athanasius did for the Church. It was Athanasius who is credited with identifying what eventually became the books of the Protestant Bible.

I bring Athanasius’ flaws up simply to illustrate that the early church fathers were no different than you or I and subject to error. Just because four or five got together and stated Mary was Queen of Heaven doesn’t make it so. We should remind ourselves that throughout history greater men of God (e.g. Elijah, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul etc) all stood up to the religious leaders of the times and told them they were wrong. Some listened. Some did not.

Throughout history man has always held there to be a Queen of Heaven. For example:

Judges 2:13-14 “And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel,…”

The Ashtaroth was a “queen of heaven”. The Lord was none too pleased with people worshipping (or serving) Ashtaroth.

The only occurrences of the phrase "Queen of Heaven" in the Bible are in reference to a false pagan goddess (see Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-25). Jesus' mother Mary is never described as having any kind of exalted position in Heaven. The Bible does not record Mary's death. In fact, Mary is never even mentioned after Acts chapter 1, verse 14. Mary was a godly women through whom God chose to bring forth His beloved Son (Luke 1:26-38). The Bible gives us no reason to believe, though, that Mary was sinless or is now exalted as the "Queen of Heaven."

Mary is to be respected as the earthly mother of Jesus, but she is not worthy of our worship and she cannot hear our prayers. The Bible nowhere indicates that anyone other than God is to be worshipped or revered. The Bible nowhere indicates that anyone other than God can hear or answer our prayers. Jesus is our only advocate in Heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If Mary were to speak to us today from heaven, she would say the same as the angels do when people try to worship them -- "Worship God!" (Revelation 19:10; 22:9).

As far as Luther “slight” disagreement on the Eucharist, it should be remembered that Luther held the same view as Wycliffe. Wycliffe, as we remember, was excommunication, his bones dug up and burned for his views on transubstantiation.

I was researching something else and came across the article on abortion and the early church fathers. I thought that was an incredibly interesting article and I didn’t want to lose it so I posted it. I was a little surprise to discovered abortion to be so prevalent in the early days of the church.

[Nihil Obstat]

I don't know about your criticism of Saint Athanasius. I don't know who Barnes and Rubenstein are so I'll leave that alone.

"I wouldn’t say Saint Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, Ephraem, or Gregory got the idea of Mary being the “Queen of Heaven” from reading the scripture. I think they erroneously reasoned 1) God is King, 2) our Lord Jesus is His Son, 3) Mary is our Lord Jesus’ mother; therefore Mary is Queen. This reasoning, IMHO, is flawed."

You read scripture and came up with a different opinion, that is your right to do so. They came up with that opinion from reading scripture. Look to the respect shown the mother of the King in the old testament. For example:

1 Kings 2:16-20: ""Pray ask king Solomon- he will not refuse you- to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife." Bathsheba said, "Very well, I will speak for you to the king." So Bathsheba went to king Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother, and she sat on his right. Then she said, "I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me." and the king said to her, "Make your request, my mother, for I will not refuse you.""

Who in the early church opposed that opinion? The Arians? Even though there are false queens of heaven there can be an actual queen of heaven, just as there are false gods and a real God.

"If Mary were to speak to us today from heaven, she would say the same as the angels do when people try to worship them -- "Worship God!" (Revelation 19:10; 22:9)."

ABSOLUTELY!!! "do whatever He tells you." 100% in agreement with you there. That is the teaching of the church.

What the church actually teaches and what people think the church teaches is where we get these disputes.

One last little nugget for you that sums that up well:

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation.

Who said that? Martin Luther in a sermon on March 11, 1523.