I was agreeing with you that the Gospel can be taught orally. What I forgot about is that our "Gospels" are not really the same thing. :)
We divide Tradition into two components: Apostolic, and Ecclesiastical. The latter is changeable. ...
Thanks for the explanation.
If Christ had intended for all men to have such power, He would have given it to them.
Or, in the alternative, if Christ had intended for any men to have the power after the Apostles, He would have given it to them. :) But seriously, I am a supporter of the laying on of hands. It was one of the most deeply moving ceremonies I have ever witnessed in our church. I know the recipient was very benefited, and the prayers were very real and produced results.
FK: "What, God can't handle forgiving sin Himself? :)"
Of course, but why did He give men the power to forgive sins in the first place in John's Gospel? Note, this is AFTER the Resurrection!
I want you to be sitting down when you read this, BUT :), I think we would disagree if even the Apostles had the actual authority to forgive sin. I would say the same for binding and loosening, since that can only come from heaven. (I know, you're SHOCKED! :) I think I would agree that they had the power to heal, and they certainly had a special blessing to evangelize.
Thus, the oral teachings preceded the written ones, and the written ones did not overturn the oral ones. Nor does it say anywhere that oral teachings are encapsulated completely within the Scriptures. This is a Protestant assumption that is proven incorrect based on the writings of the first Christians.
Are you saying that all oral teachings, including the ones that were later written down and became Apostolic Tradition were ALL in place and fully functioning from the beginning? Throughout all the centuries later, NOTHING new was "discovered"? For example, the Apostles taught a sinless Mary orally, etc.?
Then who was leading you to the Arminian view 2 months ago? How do you know that the "Spirit" won't lead you to another view next month? See, there can only be ONE Truth, and you cannot KNOW it in this manner!
To be honest, before I really didn't have an opinion because I had never thought of it before. (I didn't even know there was another way to look at it, so it was not like I had been rejecting the Calvinist, but then changed my mind.) I just saw other people I respect in my church espouse the Arminian view so if you had asked me I would have said that. I agree that there is only one truth and I believe the Spirit has recently either brought me to the absolute truth or closer to it, and I am thankful. I trust the Spirit to lead me as He chooses. You all don't learn everything instantly either, do you? :)
I find this means of determining proper doctrine as totally dependent on one's current opinion, a subjective matter, rather than an objective one coming from outside of one's self.
That's because you don't believe the Spirit talks to scrubs like us. :) We believe in a personal God.
Well, hold on, here is your chance to learn, as I am preparing to give a class on just that subject this Thursday. The Eucharist is THE source of our Christian walk. Christ comes to us and abides within us in visible form. From this abiding, we believe that Christ sanctifies us in a most perfect manner - when we are open to receiving Him.
Then I came to the right place. :) I'm not sure why, but I have been thinking of the "real presence" as that Jesus is "there" at the ceremony and present. Now, I see that He actually enters the body of the partaker. Yes? I just remember reading a million posts ago from someone or someone's link that the actual molecules of the bread and wine do not change, etc. So, I thought there was some element of symbolism. At the moment of partaking, if I have this right so far, does that mean that both the Spirit and Christ are indwelling simultaneously? If Christ enters at every partaking, when does He leave? (I'm not trying to be flippant. :)
Yes. Is this the Spirit's fault? ;)
if Christ had intended for any men to have the power after the Apostles, He would have given it to them. :)
Didn't He?
To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: Titus 1:4-5
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 2 Tim 2:1-2
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 1 Tim 4:14
Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. Acts 14: 22-23
...there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Gal 1:7b-9
So much for just anyone grabbing their scrolls and interpretating for themselves the Word of God. Seems the first followers of the Lord meant for the Church to continue through THEIR teachings from God, not only in space, but in time...
I think we would disagree if even the Apostles had the actual authority to forgive sin. I would say the same for binding and loosening, since that can only come from heaven.
WHO gave the Apostles this power? Christ did. And WHO was given ALL power and authority on earth? Christ. So Christ, upon HIS Divine authority, commissioned the Apostles. I don't quite understand the disagreement, it is pretty clear in Sciptures that "As My Father has sent me, so I send you (Apostles)" with power and authority.
Are you saying that all oral teachings, including the ones that were later written down and became Apostolic Tradition were ALL in place and fully functioning from the beginning?
We don't know at what point various doctrines were ORALLY taught! However, it would be fair to say that some were discovered after more profound meditation on God's Word. The Word of God will never be fully understood by humans while in this life. It would be silly to say that every Christian knew everything that Christ taught, all of the nuances and profound teachings directly. They "knew" in a sense, though, what they believed - thus, when questioned, they would recognize correct or permissible teachings.
I agree that there is only one truth and I believe the Spirit has recently either brought me to the absolute truth or closer to it, and I am thankful.
So we really cannot know, of ourselves, if we have achieved the truth on a doctrine, correct? So how is a Christian supposed to KNOW these important issues? This is why Christ left a power to certain people to bind and loosen. Would God leave us totally in the dark, not knowing if we are just following a whim, rather than truth?
That's because you don't believe the Spirit talks to scrubs like us. :) We believe in a personal God.
You keep misunderstanding me on this concept. God speaks to us. We have a personal relationship with God through the Scriptures, through our daily lives, and for Catholics, through the sacraments, visible comings of God to us. I think it should be obvious, though, that we can't determine doctrine individually, though. If there can be only one truth, and men separately cannot agree on it, what does that say about the Spirit of Truth revealing such matters to you and me? God reveals DOCTRINE through the Church - ONE truth.
I'm not sure why, but I have been thinking of the "real presence" as that Jesus is "there" at the ceremony and present. Now, I see that He actually enters the body of the partaker. Yes?
Yes to both. Christ is present in a more substantial manner through the Eucharist. But He is also present through the Body of the faithful, as well ("when two or more are gathered in my name, I am there with them"). If we say Christ must abide in us, how better than through the Eucharist, when He enters us visibly?
So, I thought there was some element of symbolism
There is. The Eucharist is both symbol and reality. The physical eating of the elements is supposed to recall to mind HIS giving of Himself and instill within us the same desires for other people. But we also realize He is there as He promised - and it is through this partaking of His flesh under the appearance of bread that we have life. But not physical life - spiritual life.
At the moment of partaking, if I have this right so far, does that mean that both the Spirit and Christ are indwelling simultaneously?
Where Christ is, there is the Father and Spirit - remember the teachings of the Trinity. All Three act together, as there is not three separate wills among the Three Persons of the Trinity. What One does, they ALL do. While we say Christ has entered us through the Eucharist, the Spirit is THE Gift, as He is the one who blesses us with the gifts and virtues that we need to walk the Christian walk. It is the Spirit that makes the Eucharist "operative" in our transformation into another Christ. But note that all Three are present and all Three are giving of themselves to us and transforming us. We, as men, "assign" different roles to each of the persons of the Trinity.
If Christ enters at every partaking, when does He leave?
Christ is present in this manner as long as the Eucharist remains - 15 minutes is generally what I have heard. But it is His effects, the Spirit's gifts, that remain. As long as His effects remain within us, He continues to grace us with His presence, in a different manner. Thus, He doesn't "leave us", unless we sin mortally, a proposition that is not very likely in a communicant who has worthily received the Lord in this manner.
With proper disposition, the frequent reception of the Eucharist begins to transform us, making us more patient, more loving, more faithful, etc. The Eucharist is thus called the summit and source of our Christian life. Certainly, there are other means that Christ graces us with His presence and gifts. But the Eucharist is the most effective and most substantial.
Brother in Christ