[Forest Keeper]

FK: "God NEVER let's His elect go. He loves them too much."

So, we must then conclude that He really didn't care for the very people He created in the Garden of Eden. In other words, God made rejects.

To be honest, I really don't know what the theology is on whether Adam and Eve eventually wound up in heaven or not, but I would like to know. My "guess" would be that they are both in heaven because God showed mercy on them by kicking them out of the garden, lest they should again partake of the fruit of the tree. God saved them from themselves. What does your side say?

Regarding "rejects", perhaps I wouldn't choose those words, but 'Yes', in essence you are correct. God does create many whom He already knows He will pass over for salvation. Glory be to God that He chose at least some as His elect. The universe is the Potter's workshop, so He makes the rules.

So God has authority to force us to love Him? The authority to change our minds and our hearts? That's love, right?

Well, YES! He does have the authority. Do you deny Him that authority? And, that IS ABSOLUTELY love. He expresses it by touching His elect and leading them to Him, with the guarantee that His elect will not slip out of His hands, even if the member at first doesn't cooperate. God has an amazing way of making His elect "an offer they can't refuse" without them even knowing it! :)

We don't have the authority to force a woman because it is morally wrong.

We don't have the authority because it is morally wrong, we didn't create her, and we couldn't anyway, even if we wanted to. (We were talking about making someone love us, right? :)

God is doing everything short of forcing us to save us. But people reject God out of their own pride and will.

Is the first part a typo? On the second part, I would say that all people will reject God out of their sin nature until God intervenes.

[Kolokotronis]

"To be honest, I really don't know what the theology is on whether Adam and Eve eventually wound up in heaven or not, but I would like to know. My "guess" would be that they are both in heaven because God showed mercy on them by kicking them out of the garden, lest they should again partake of the fruit of the tree. God saved them from themselves. What does your side say?"

Your honesty, FK is appreciated! Indeed, it is the theology of The Church that Adam and Eve are in heaven, having been released from hades by Christ Himself as is shown in the icon of the Resurrection:

Your comment raise several intersting points. Initially, we have the whole question of the purpose of the Incarnation. Why did God become Man and dwell among us? Why did he have to die? Why did He have to descend to hades, the abode of the dead, break the bonds of the Evil One and free the souls of the righteous dead? Why did He rise on Great and Holy Pascha? Was it part of some divine farce, a show put on to entertain God? That's what predestination and a denial of free will would seem to require one to believe. If we have nothing at all to do with our own damnation or salvation, or if all we have to do since the greatest event in the history of the world is say the "sinner's prayer" and we're "in", then the conclusion is inescapable that God is a great impressario putting on shows for His own entertainment and reall nothing more. But The Church doesn't teach that at all. +John says:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

The whole world, FK, not just the "elect", assuming even for a moment that the sins of the "elect" need atonement which seems, well, a bit of a contradiction.

You say that God showed His mercy by kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden "lest they should partake of the fruit of the tree". This is indeed correct, but do you know why? Here's what +John Chrysostomos says:

"Partaking of the tree, the man and woman became liable to death and subject to the future needs of the body. Adam was no longer permitted to remain in the Garden, and was bidden to leave, a move by which God showed His love for him. He had become mortal, and lest he presume to eat further from the tree which promised an endless life of continuous sinning, he was expelled from the Garden as a mark of divine solicitude, not of necessity." Hom. in Gen XVIII, 3.

But they still died, didn't they? The tree didn't have death in it; it only had good in it.

The tree of knowledge itself was good, and its fruit was good. For it was not the tree that had death in it, as some think, but the disobedience which had death in it; for there was nothing else in the fruit but knowledge alone; but knowledge is good when one uses it properly." Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus

"The tree did not engender death, for God did not create death; but death was the consequence of disobedience." St. John Damascene Homily on Holy Saturday