[HarleyD]

By the way, you should know by now that Pelagius heresy refers to doing things WITHOUT GRACE! Clearly, I or ANY Catholic on this very long thread have never even implied that we can do anything without God. So please drop the accusation of Pelagianism...

Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, Arminianism...they are all one in the same. They take different forms and different structure but they all have the same belief backing them; man has to 1) cooperate or 2) have faith to be saved. Man has to do something. If it looks like a duck and quack like a duck it must be a .....

A seal is permanent, but we can turn away from God, giving up our birth right.

If we're sealed with His Holy Spirit there is no way we'll ever turn away. This is the promise of Ezekiel 36, "I will put my spirit in them and CAUSE them to walk in my statues...".

WE CAN grieve the Holy Spirit, as I shown in 1 Cor 3:17 and other places.

Sure, we can grieve the Holy Spirit. We can also quench the Holy Spirit. How long do you think we will do that before God bops us on the head to get our attention? Do you think we can withstand God's chastisement?

[jo kus]

"...man has to 1) cooperate or 2) have faith to be saved. Man has to do something. If it looks like a duck and quack like a duck it must be a ....."

Men don't have to do anything? The Bible disagrees quite often with that statement. DOING something is not the problem, Harley. It is doing something WITHOUT God, the attitude that one can earn salvation by doing something. However, one must cooperate with God's graces to be saved. There is a big difference between doing something without God and doing something with God. Are you going to be able to point out to a time when the Church believed that men do nothing at all for the sake of salvation?

"I will put my spirit in them and CAUSE them to walk in my statues...".

Nothing there about how often or if this will continue despite any turning away.

How long do you think we will do that before God bops us on the head to get our attention? Do you think we can withstand God's chastisement?

Even St. Augustine believed that men must somehow cooperate with God. One who does not shows the signs that they are not of the Elect. No one can withstand God's chastisements. But God also chastises and punishes the wicked, as well. It is difficult to determine whether a specific event is for our chastisement to return us to the fold or part of God's punishment for our wickedness. It takes discernment. In any case, only God knows who the elect are - we don't.

Regards