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To: Forest Keeper
This kind of reasoning is precisely why I am a protester. Sometimes it seems that the only way for Catholicism to work is to throw out the plain meaning of the verse. Notice that the verb and form used in Rom. 3:23 is EXACTLY the same used in Rom. 5:12

Brother, regarding Romans 3. Realize that when Paul quotes the Old Testament, he always considers the context. He is quoting from several of the Psalms. Here is an example from Psalms 5:

For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man. But as for me, I will come [into] thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: [and] in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple. Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part [is] very wickedness; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee. But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as [with] a shield.

Over and over, the Psalms speaks of the two "ways". Those who follow God and those who do not. Those who do not follow God, there is not one righteous among them. Not even one. They all follow their own ways...and so forth. This is what Paul is saying in Romans 3. King David was speaking of unrighteous JEWS. Just because one is a Jew doesn't mean he is righteous. One's birth does not determine whether one is saved.

IF one was to say that Paul actually means that ALL men are wicked, then Paul ALSO must mean that Jesus is wicked as well. Paul does NOT exclude Jesus anywhere in Romans 3. Thus, we know that Paul is NOT refering to ALL mankind when he says they are ALL wicked. Only those who turn from God are wicked. Every last one of them. Otherwise, you would have the Bible disagree with the numerous times that it refers to men and women as righteous!!! And Jesus is wicked?

The need for a preferred philosophy requires stretching scripture into the most unnatural shapes.

I wonder why it took Christianity 1500 years to figure out the "truth" of the Gospel according to Luther! If Paul means ALL men are wicked, then ALL men are wicked. That would include Jesus. Simple as that. You can't have it both ways.

Regards

2,311 posted on 02/06/2006 4:16:24 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
IF one was to say that Paul actually means that ALL men are wicked, then Paul ALSO must mean that Jesus is wicked as well. Paul does NOT exclude Jesus anywhere in Romans 3. Thus, we know that Paul is NOT referring to ALL mankind when he says they are ALL wicked. Only those who turn from God are wicked. Every last one of them. Otherwise, you would have the Bible disagree with the numerous times that it refers to men and women as righteous!!! And Jesus is wicked?

I thought that we could agree that Paul gives Jesus Himself a pass here, but I guess not. Paul clearly refers to Jesus being sinless in 2 Cor.:

2 Cor. 5:21 : "21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Therefore, Paul was clearly not referring to Jesus in Romans 3 (unless, of course, Paul changed his mind, which I don't claim :). He was, though, referring to all of the rest of us. Where does Paul give Mary a pass like this? Of course in the world there are those who follow God and those who don't. How does this explain away Romans 3? Are you saying that Paul is saying that some are born righteous and never sin, that he only is referring to those who are not following God? In saying that "All" does not mean "All", Paul's point is to say that all sinners sin? How profound! You're putting Paul into an impossible corner.

2,449 posted on 02/09/2006 11:25:04 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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