I believe that our "position" of righteousness in God's eyes is made secure at the single moment of salvation. Our "condition in" righteousness improves throughout our lives via sanctification. All of the elect enter heaven in a blameless state, because of what Christ did. So, when we are saved we are not perfect people. But, when we die and enter heaven we enter as "perfect" because of Jesus. Sanctification is useful to become better Christians and better witnesses. It also helps us to love God more and to understand better His love for us. Sanctification does not save, it is a pre-ordained process following a true salvation. This is the work that Christ began in us and will carry on until completion.
I see faith in different degrees. There is faith of the intellect, faith that speaks of trusting in God to fulfill His promises, and faith that obeys the Lord out of love. When the Scriptures speak of "walking in faith", I see a fully-formed faith, a faith with love added to it, as in James.
I agree, and that true faith has love.
I suppose what I am trying to understand is that you seem to believe that one must have faith and love to enter heaven, but it should be perfectly clear that some do not have both, and others who believe they do, at one point will admit that they didn't. Thus, there is a time where our love is insufficient to allow us to call our faith "saving faith". Yet, how many Protestants do you know, honestly, that think that their faith is not saving yet? See what I am trying to say? At what point do you have "saving faith", enough to die that instant and go to heaven?
You raise an excellent issue. :) I do agree that some professing faith in Christ do not have both faith and love. I am one who admits that at the time of my salvation I did not know how to love God as I should. I also agree that I don't know any Protestant who doesn't believe his own faith is already sufficient, as that Protestant defines faith. IOW, no one who assumes himself saved can also believe himself wanting in faith.
So, was I still saved when I said my sinner's prayer, even though at that moment I had not done a single good work in God's eyes? YES. Here is how I look at it: you are either a member of the elect or you are not. God determines this, we have nothing to do with it. So, if I had died the day after saying the sinner's prayer, then I'm still in because there was no time to fall away and reject God.
As it turned out in my case, soon after my sinner's prayer I fell away during college. Now, what if I had died during that time? I would say that if that had happened then I wouldn't have been a member of the elect in the first place. God promises to keep His own so if I died in a permanent state of rejection, then I'm toast because God doesn't lie. Wonderfully for me that did not happen, and I have since appropriated the love for God that we are talking about. Of course, this isn't the case with everyone, I'm sure many have been saved with the whole package in tact. The whole point is that if you are on the list, then you are on the list. God uses a million different ways to bring those on the list to where they need to be. There is no set formula.
I don't see in Scriptures where our judgment upon our death will determine a good or better reward. The Scriptures point to either eternal happiness, or an everlasting grinding of teeth in hell. There doesn't seem to be any mention about our judgment being used to determine the square footage of our plot in heaven (or other such talk).
I'm gunning for cloudfront property myself. :) Here are a couple of verses:
Matt. 5:10-12 : "10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
So, for those who are persecuted like the prophets were, AND STAND UP, it appears that their reward will be greater than a "regular" reward. That makes sense to me, as the martyrs had purer faith. Many good Christians of today would cave under torture, etc.
Matt. 16:27 : "27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."
This "clearly" indicates varying degrees of reward. Those who have done more, get more. I realize that your take on this is going to be to say that the reward spoken of is salvation itself. I found some verses that do lead in that direction. So, we'll just disagree. :)
I believe that the Church teaches that men will have different rewards in heaven, but this is more based on Tradition then Scripture (LOL - you are following Tradition!).
Yeah, yeah, yeah. :)
Well, I understand your point of view, although I still am not so absolutely confident that my name is in the Book of the Elect right now. I have a moral confidence of it, but not absolute - that would seem to take away God's Freedom, in case I decided to just start sinning whenever I felt like it - although then you'll say "I never was saved to begin with"! Which then we go in circles by me saying "then how can we know WE are saved in 5 years?"
OK, then the first question to ask is: "From God's point of view, does He constantly sit there erasing and adding new names to the Book of Life? Does God say: "Look, there's Jim Miller, I just wrote his name back in after he confessed two hours ago, but now he has sinned again. Where's that eraser?" :) I honestly don't believe it works like that. Does God work like Beethoven, whose original works were filled with cross-outs and corrections, or does He work like Mozart, whose originals did not have a single correction?
If we get passed this, then we only need to look at God's many promises on the subject. You already know all the verses I can quote that "appear" to assure salvation. If you believe that the Book of Life is not subject to reprintings, then you can know for sure.
FK: "Yes, I believe that I am of the elect and my name cannot be blotted out. I would replace "cannot fall" with "will not fall".
Scripture clearly states we CAN fall: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor 10:12
YES, that is exactly why I wanted to make a change. ("Cannot fall" was your term.) We CAN fall but we (the elect) WILL NOT fall because of God's promise to us of protection.
"True faith"? I suppose that means faith with love? It appears that Protestants have an aversion to the word "love" preferring to "hide" it in the definition of "faith". Does a faith without works of love save?
We don't have any aversion to the word "love", we have an aversion to the appearance of believing in a works-based salvation. We do not "hide" anything. We just see the definition as inclusive. Works are a natural fruit of true faith, so they will happen.
So YOUR intent of sincerity determines your eternal salvation? Doesn't that sound like a "work", something you earned?
From God's point of view, my intent of sincerity is irrelevant, I am either on the list or I am not. The sincerity is what helps ME to KNOW it. When I said my sinner's prayer I know that I gave everything there was inside me to give at that time. If the TRUTH is that I was still full of baloney then I am toast, but I'm not going to live my life worrying about it. I'm going to live my life in the joy and confidence of my salvation, based on God's grace and His promises to me in scripture. This is what I think it means when we "rest" in Him.
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I also appreciate your answers. I believe that through our conversation, sanctification is happening! It has been a wonderful and very educational experience for me. :)
That's semantics -- it basically means you cannot fall because God will not let you. And the non-elect, again by God's will, fall and are damned.
How can you do anything on your own when you deny free will? Whether you fall or not fall is God's will according to your belief, so it is wholly irrelevant and indeed meaningless to even speak in terms of what you can or cannot do -- for it is obvious that Protestants believe that man cannot do anything on his own; in other words a captive robot used for one or the other end.
The only thing that is secure is from GOD'S point of view. We don't know God's point of view, as the Scriptures clearly point out. There are numerous verses that talk about falling away from God, of losing salvation: For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful hope of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (Heb 10:26-27)
Moreover, brothers, I would that ye not ignore how our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea and did all eat the same spiritual food and did all drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them; and that Rock was the Christ. But with many of them God was not pleased; therefore, they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things became types of us, that we should not lust after evil things as they lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed and fell [dead]: in one day, twenty-three thousand. Neither let us tempt the Christ, as some of them also tempted and perished by the serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured and perished by the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them as types, and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Therefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:1-12
No, we DO NOT know our "eternal position" with God at any point in our lives - it is only upon our death will we know ultimately our true stance with the Father in heaven. We cannot have absolute assurance. Even Paul did not have such absolute assurance, in the verses immediately following the above: I therefore so run, not as unto an uncertain thing; so I fight, not as one that beats the air; but I keep my body under, and bring [it] into subjection, lest preaching to others, I myself should become reprobate. (1 Cor 9:26-27)
IF you truly believe that the Scripture is the WORD of God, literally, how can you explain away such verses? How can they be reconcilled with OSAS? Christ carries out His work until its completion - sure. But how do you know that YOU are one of His works that He will complete? We rely on the grace of God and His mercy that we are of the sheepfold, but we NEVER presume that we are among the Elect until our judgment.
So, was I still saved when I said my sinner's prayer, even though at that moment I had not done a single good work in God's eyes? YES
I presume when you mean "saved" above, you mean initial justification, not saved for eternal life. We are healed (saved) of our sins. But we are not "saved" for eternal life until we are further sanctified. Otherwise, sanctification has no utilization, as I have made great pains to explain. If we are saved for eternal life with no possibility of losing this salvation, or can add nothing (love) to it, there is NO need for this 'being made holy', since Christ already will cover us.
Here is how I look at it: you are either a member of the elect or you are not. God determines this, we have nothing to do with it. So, if I had died the day after saying the sinner's prayer, then I'm still in because there was no time to fall away and reject God.
That's true. But you sinner's prayer does not make you of the elect, God does. Here we tread the mysterious interaction between God and man.
Now, what if I had died during that time? I would say that if that had happened then I wouldn't have been a member of the elect in the first place
That is an interesting admission. I guess my point still is quite valid: How do you know your sinner's prayer is "effective" in granting you the position of the elect? In what you have said, you really can't know - since we can't see the future (although God does). We cannot KNOW that we will continue to remain in Christ. Thus, the "sinner's prayer" is in of ITSELF not determinitive of one's status with the Lord. Only faith working through love can give us a "confirmation" of our status - presuming we don't die the evening of our "sinner's prayer"/baptism. I think your statement is evidence that one is NOT absolutely assured of salvation.
But fear not, we can have a good moral assurance of our destiny if Christ is abiding within us. He abides within us through the Eucharist, and proven through our faith working with love. We cannot obey the commandments in love unless He abides within us. Thus, we have our CURRENT evidence. Not absolute, but relatively assured. But this says NOTHING of our acts in 2007.
I wrote : I don't see in Scriptures where our judgment upon our death will determine a good or better reward
Mat 5:12 - consider reading the entire context of the Beatitudes. Every single "blessed" grants the reward of eternal heaven. The reward itself is summarized in Mat 5:12 in that we will have heaven. Those who do not do what Christ lays out in the Beatitudes will NOT receive this reward. Thus, the reward is heaven, the punishment is hell. There is nothing about a person "just getting in" because they said the sinner's prayer but didn't do the Beatitudes receiving a lesser reward then those who continue and achieve the contents of the Beatitudes and receive a greater reward. Their is no such contrast betweeen greater or lesser reward, but only ONE reward - God Himself, as explained in various ways by : "theirs is the kingdom of the heavens; for they shall be comforted; for they shall inherit the earth; for they shall obtain mercy", etc... All of these are different ways of saying - "you'll enter heaven". Mat 16:27 While it is possible to interpret that verse to mean what you say, there are others who do not. According to Barnes, he writes about this verse:
"Reward. The word reward means recompense, or do justice to. He will deal with them according to their character. The righteous he will reward in heaven, with glory and happiness. The wicked he will send to hell, as a reward or recompense for their evil works"
Again, the vast majority of the time, the Scripture talks about judgment as either being eternal heaven or eteranl hell. This is clear from the many parables of Christ. Over and over, He tells about those who obey and are rewarded with the Banquet, while those who do not are NOT given lower rewards, but are expelled and "grind their teeth" in eternal darkness.
Examples? Mat 22:2-14, the Wedding Banquet; Luke 14:16-24, the Large Dinner; Mat 25:1-13, the Ten Virgins; Mat 25:14-30, the Talents, and Mat 25:31-45, the Sheep and the Goats
OK, then the first question to ask is: "From God's point of view, does He constantly sit there erasing and adding new names to the Book of Life
No. God sees all as one now. He views Creation, the Incarnation, and my life as one event in the present. Thus, He doesn't need to "erase" anything - He sees me in one view. However, the Scripture speaks as if God erases people's name from the Book of Life because it is written from the point of view of men - within time. Men operate in time. We move into and out of God's graces.
If you believe that the Book of Life is not subject to reprintings, then you can know for sure
We don't have access to reading God's Book of Life. Thus, we can only HOPE we are of the Elect. We don't know, since God's ways are not our ways. Everything about God saving His elect is true. The problem is "are you of the elect"? As our conversation above has stated, we MAY fall away. Thus, if our "sinner's prayer" might not have been effective (since you say we might not have been saved to begin with!), you can't possibly KNOW you are of the elect irrefutably and without possibility of falling.
We CAN fall but we (the elect) WILL NOT fall because of God's promise to us of protection
I hope it is becoming clear that God will protect HIS ELECT, not all who take the sinner's prayer. As you have stated, the sinner's prayer does not equate with salvation in heaven. Only God's Elect are prevented from falling into hell. But we cannot know if we are one of them elect. Even Paul, as I have quoted above, was fearful of being of the reprobate. Paul, for heaven's sake!
The sincerity is what helps ME to KNOW it
I can sincererly believe 2+2=5. That doesn't make it correct. Our sincerity doesn't save us. That puts the onus of salvation on your own good feelings and emotions...
When I said my sinner's prayer I know that I gave everything there was inside me to give at that time
Yet, you fell away (as I did after my Baptism). You yourself admit that an untimely death before your re-conversion would not have saved you. Thus, your emotions and good will of 1995 or whatever have nothing to do with your status with God in 2006 or 2010.
If the TRUTH is that I was still full of baloney then I am toast, but I'm not going to live my life worrying about it.
Work out your salvation in fear and trembling...I don't think a true Christian will ever presume that they are saved and no longer need to worry about their status in God's eyes. It is not something we are anxious about, true. We should have confidence in the Lord's promises. But I have found that as soon as one believes they are "OK" in God's eyes, that is when pride begins to seep into our actions. By maintaining a humble attitude, one where we rely totally on God's mercy and not presuming ourselves to already have run the race, I believe is closer to what God has shown us through Jesus Christ.
Regards