Oh, I understand that, I wouldn't expect you or any good Catholic to cherry pick from the Pope! He wouldn't be the Pope if he didn't know Catholicism inside and out. :)
Thus, the idea of the Immaculate Conception is quite old - it is just not DOGMA - infallible teaching - until 1854, I think.
Thanks for the info on this. I had no idea about the connection between Mary and Eve.
Seemed determine to catch me here, huh? ;-) We cannot know how much a person realizes that the Catholic Church is the TRUE Church, that it subsists within it, and that it was formed to bring people into union with Christ.
Yup! :) But, I accept your answer. It beats the heck out of a declarative "All non-Catholics will rot in hell!". That would have been a total bummer.
The Spirit certainly can come [to a saved person] in a "more direct manner", but not to the exclusion of the Church, which is what I believe Protestantism teaches.
I understand how you could say that. As for myself, I certainly do not believe that the Spirit bypasses Catholics and only leads Protestants. And on this thread, among other Protestants, I don't feel lonely at all in this view.
If you say that the Spirit is leading you through the Church to believe in a thing, then I am in no position to accuse you of being a liar. On the same issue, I might say that the Spirit is leading me in a different direction. I agree with you that there is only one truth, therefore one or both of us is wrong in receiving the Spirit's leadership. So, we work through it as best as we can. I can't explain why this happens, all I can say is that we'll find out someday.
Me: "OK, why would anyone say "NO"? Who wouldn't accept such a gift? "
Faith is the gift, correct? What is faith? "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). It is not seen yet! The PROMISE made is just that - a promise of eternal life. Thus, people are free to not accept the promise for whatever reason (we've heard a number of excuses).
This is fascinating. Here is the same verse from my NIV:
1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. [Emphasis added]
This completely changes everything as far as how we look at this verse, doesn't it? I can't think of a bigger difference in all the verses we have swapped. Very interesting.
But, getting back to your point, it appears you are saying that the lost person never gets to the stage of turning down a sure thing because he first rejects the required faith. OK, but you would have to admit that the person still has no conception of what he is rejecting. Else, he would obviously accept the gift. That was my point. With fair knowledge, who would say 'No'?
Me: "My faith says that the Spirit will always point me toward the narrow road, even if I sometimes stray through briers or rocky sidepaths."
:-) as long as you can identify the "voice of the Spirit", that would work great! Sometimes, that is hard to do. Discernment is a difficult ART (not a science) that takes a lot of work and prayer.
True enough. Between my bleatings, I pray I will recognize my Shepherd's voice when He calls. :)
NO!!! You are tempting my primary vice...
LOL! God bless.
Well, it is not a matter of the Pope's innate wisdom per sec that leads loyal Catholics to obey, but the fact that we understand that God works powerfully through his teachings - even if not infallible, they rate our obedience, as Hebrews 13:17 (among others) states :"Listen to your pastors, and do not resist them, for they watch for your souls as those that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief; for that [is] unprofitable for you."
An interesting note is the definition of "catholic". It means more than "universal". It means "the totality" or "the whole of the parts". Thus, it can be said that there is no such thing as a cafeteria Catholic. By picking and choosing, you de facto say you are not "Catholic". Thus, we follow everything that is legitimately taught to us. You would, too, if you accepted the Church's establishment is based on the Foundation, Jesus Christ.
I had no idea about the connection between Mary and Eve.
When I teach people about Mary, I focus on the early Church's connection between the two (which is a natural parallel that Paul makes with Jesus and Adam).
Here is an example:
God, by a rival method, restored His image and likeness...For into Eve when she was yet a virgin had crept the word that established death, likewise, into a Virgin was to be brought the Word of God that produced life; so that what had gone to ruin by the one sex might be restored to salvation by the same sex. (Tertullian, On the Flesh of Christ, c. 200 AD)
There are similar such quotes by St. Justin the Martyr in 150 and St. Ireneaus in 180 AD. They saw that the disobedience of Adam and Eve should be canceled out in the SAME manner by the obedience of two people. These people would be similar, also - Since Adam and Eve were born sinless, and Jesus was born sinless, then the Church viewed Mary, also, as sinless. Thus, the argument for the Immaculate Conception was very early, an idea that no one refuted.
I understand how you could say that. As for myself, I certainly do not believe that the Spirit bypasses Catholics and only leads Protestants. And on this thread, among other Protestants, I don't feel lonely at all in this view.
As I have said elsewhere, the Spirit operates on two levels within the Church. The first level is for our individual sanctification. While the Sacraments are the par excellence of God's coming to us, we also can receive Him during prayer and Scripture meditation, for example. Certainly, Protestants are quite open to receiving the Spirit in this manner. The second level is the Spirit guarding the teachings of the Christ. Christ is not visibly present on earth for all time, so to maintain what HE taught, we must rely on some divinely-guided body to ensure that men (who are wounded of intellect) do not stray over hundreds of years of Christianity from God's teachings. This second level is given to the Bishops, those men following in the footsteps of the Apostles (this laying of hands, the passing of the torch, is clearly seen in the Pastorals).
But, getting back to your point, it appears you are saying that the lost person never gets to the stage of turning down a sure thing because he first rejects the required faith. OK, but you would have to admit that the person still has no conception of what he is rejecting. Else, he would obviously accept the gift. That was my point. With fair knowledge, who would say 'No'?
People have various levels of faith (due to their own disbelief or skepticism). A person can have an intellectual faith, but it does not lead us to love. I know this from experience, as my first 6 months in Christianity was like that. Intellectual with little love. A person who rejects God at that stage certainly does not know what He is rejecting OR He doesn't have a strong enough faith to believe that it is really true. What is "fair knowledge"? I am sure that both of us are aware of people who have fallen away from Christianity, in some cases, many years after following Christ. The problem is often skepticism creeps in. Or a strong presence of evil appears. But knowledge is not enough to hold us to God. It requires an ongoing relationship with Christ.
Regards