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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Cronos; annalex; jo kus
+Irenaeus (130-202 AD) knew only 16 books of the NT (the others were not written yet!).

Oh really? When did the Church write Paul's letters. He might sue for plagerism.

Well did or did not the Church write the letters? You tell me the Church doesn't claim to have written them and then you turn around and say that after everyone was dead and gone they didn't exist. You'll find this wasn't the belief of the early church. They should know.

2,103 posted on 01/29/2006 7:01:17 AM PST by HarleyD (Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way? - Pro 20:24)
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To: HarleyD
Oh really? When did the Church write Paul's letters. He might sue for plagerism

The authorship of those books, which are nonetheless considered inspired, is not certain, HD. Hate to burst your bubble.

2,109 posted on 01/29/2006 1:32:44 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD; annalex; Cronos; jo kus; Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; bornacatholic; NYer
You tell me the Church doesn't claim to have written them and then you turn around and say that after everyone was dead and gone they didn't exist. You'll find this wasn't the belief of the early church. They should know

Hah! That's funny. Like I said, you have no clue what you are talking about. But, out of Christian charity and for the benefit of all and especially for better understanding where I am coming from, here is what is known of the Christian canon:

Let's start with the first century. The first Gospel was written about 30 years after the Resurrection, at the time +Paul was writing his Epistles, around 65 AD. So, for about 20 or so years, the Church existed on oral tradition completely.

Then the other two synoptic Gospels were written between 70 and 80 AD, but +John's Gospel was not around for yet another 20 years. So, no church could quote him until the 2nd century!

St. Clement of Rome (95 AD), third or fourth Bishop of Rome, mentions only Pauline Epistles. SS Ignatius (ordained bishop by St. Paul), born in 60 AD, and Polycarp (a disciple of St. John), born c. 80 AD, did not consider Gospels on the same level as the Septuagint (OT), which was the only Scripture at that time.

Marcion of Sinope (c. 150 AD) is the first to present a Christian canon. He was one of the first sigificant heretics, who rejected the Old Testament completely and the "Jewish" God, and used only the NT books available at that time as Scripture. He used the Gospel of Luke and exorcised any part of it that had to do with Jesus quoting from the OT. He also refers to this Gospel simply as "Gospel."

Tatian, a disciple of St. Justin Martyr, a Syrian Christian, wrote Diatessaron -- a one volume "harmonization" of four Gospels in 173 AD. The Syrian Church used this text liturgically for over 200 years as "New Testament."

St. Irenaeus (130-202 AD), as mentioned before, spoke of only four Gospels. He considered the Gospel of Luke and Pauline Epistles part of the one and the same author. He also knew of 16 NT books (out of 27).

The so-called Muratorian fragment is a 7th century document claiming to be a Latin translation of the Greek original of the first Christian canon complied by an anonimous individual in 170 AD. It excludes St. Paul's Epistle to the Hebrews, Letters to the Laodiceans and Alexandrians, and the Apocalpypse of Peter, but includes the Epistle to Jude and the Book of Wisdom. The four Gospels, Acts and other letters of St. Paul are included.

Eusebius, the Bishop of Caesarea (c. 275-339 AD), the first recognized Church historian, lists 4 Gospels, 10 Pauline Epistles, 1 John and 1 Peter. He disputes Diatessaron (170 AD), and the following books now included in the NT: Hebrews, Acts of Paul, James, 2nd Peter, 2-3 John, Jude, Revelation.

Cheltenham Canon (aka Mommsen's) from around 350 AD, lists 24 books in the Old Testament, and 24 books in the New Testament, but excludes Hebrews, Jude and James which are now included in the NT canon.

The Synod of Laodicea (363 AD), lists 22 books in the Old Testament and 27 books in the New Testament, but excludes the Revelation of John (note: this is as late as mid 4th century!). This Synod was one of the first councils that was set up specifically to determine the canonicity of various gospels and epistles in circulation 330 years after Christ.

St. Athanasius includes a 22 book OT and a 27 book NT plus 7 non-canonical books Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit, Didache, and the Pastor profittable for reading.

The Synod of Carthage in 397 AD settled the NT canon as porposed by +Athanasius.

Synod in Trullo in 697 AD excludes Revelation and Apostolic Constitutions.

St John of Damascus (8th century), accepts Didache and Apostolic Constitutions.

Nicephorus, the Patriarch of Jerusalem (9th century) added the books previously rejected as uninspired forgeries: appended to the end of his Chronography rejected Esther, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Maccabees, Psalms of Solomon, Enoch, Didache, Barnabas, Hermas, Clement, Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of the Hebrews, 3rd Corinthians, Acts of Paul, Revelation, Apocalypse of Peter!

Martin Luther (16th c.) attempted to remove James, Hebrews and Revelation. Some 16th and 17th century Protestant bibles included these as "Apocrypha."

Councils of Florence and Trent (15th and 16th cc) added Deuterocanonical books. The Church of England in the Thirty-Nine Articles (17th c.) recognized them as "profittable" but not for doctrinal development.

The Calvinist Westminster Confession (17th c.) lists a 39-book Old Testament and a 27-book NT!!!

Synod of Jerusalem (17th c.) adds Psalm 151, 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, Psalms of Solomon, Odes of Solomon, Letter of Jeremiah to the otherwise Catholic Canon.

The Orthodox Church to this day uses only Septuagint (LXX) as the OT source, since it is the OT quoted in the Gospels. The Protestants use Hebrew Masoretic text since the 16th century.

Thomas Jefferson (19th century) creates his own "Bible" using his own personal interetation what was believable and what was not.

Vatican I (1870) adds verses to Mark (16:9-20), Luke (22:19b-20 and 43-44), and John (7:53-8:11).

In 1927, Pope Pius XI declared Comma Johanneum as uncertain (it is a 16th century Latin innovation that does not appear in earlier manuscripts; the insertions have a strong Trinitarian character and involve John 5:7-8.

In 1993, the Jesus Seminar made up of some one hundred theologians recognized the [Gnostic] Gospel of Thomas as the "fifth" Gospel.

So, as you can see, the catholic and apostolic Church is not the only one whose members, collected, assembled and reassembled the what is loosly called the Chirstian Bible.

It is clear that throughout the history the term New Testament or the Chirstian Bible or Scripture meant many different things and that to this date there are changes being made by various groups in what is considered the inspired word of God. Iy is equally clear that not all Christian read from and get their understanding of the faith from one and the same Scripture.

But the first group to collect existing scrolls into a coherent canon of the New Testament was the catholic and apostolic Church.

2,111 posted on 01/29/2006 3:18:06 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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