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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Cronos; annalex; jo kus
Given that you have said that God experiences all time simultaneously, how would you put the fall into the context of God's plan? (I know you know that God is omniscient.)

Well, from God's perspective, if we can assume we can even talk about it, the Plan has been devised from all eternity and is done. God is there. We aren't. He sees Adam in Paradise and He sees saved humanity in Paradise at the End of Times. Our detour does not change His plan. God's plan was to create man in His image and likeness, who will be in communion with Him.

Now, I have seen many models of this. Mine is perhaps naive but it works for me: God stands with his feet apart and looks down. He sees both feet at the same time and that distance is eternity. We are little ants on the ground between his feet. God has cleared a small portion of the ground to show the path between His feet, but some ants wonder off because they are curious or because they see something to the side and wish to investigate. Some get too from from the trail and get lost. Those who stick to the trail reach the other foot eventually, even if their path is not exactly straight.

Now, God could have placed all the ants into a tube stretched from one foot to the next, in which case none of the ants would be lost, but they would also not be free.

was it God's original plan that all people would be born immortal on earth, but man foiled this plan?

Maybe you should ask yourself if God made Adam and Eve in Paradise so they can become corrupt and die? Did God destroy His own crown-jewels intentionally? If God wants man in Paradise in His image and likeness and Adam and Eve were what He wanted, and that's where He wants people to be, why would He then create the chaos that resulted?

I think it makes more sense that we are the culprits of the destruction of our own blessings rather than God, Who, after, all gave them to us.

2,074 posted on 01/28/2006 4:36:04 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
[Re: your analogy on God's plan:] God stands with his feet apart and looks down. He sees both feet at the same time and that distance is eternity. We are little ants on the ground between his feet. God has cleared a small portion of the ground to show the path between His feet, but some ants wander off because they are curious or because they see something to the side and wish to investigate. Some get too from from the trail and get lost. Those who stick to the trail reach the other foot eventually, even if their path is not exactly straight.

This is interesting. To a person hearing this for the first time, it seems that God is content that some ants wander off. He might wish for all the ants to cross, but it doesn't appear that He is willing to do anything about it. I didn't think you thought that God stays out of our lives. I know you know all the verses about Christ leading His sheep. Does God offer a path and then stay out of it? God Himself gave the ants the ability to be curious, so when they exercise it, is that too bad for them?

Me: "was it God's original plan that all people would be born immortal on earth, but man foiled this plan?"

Maybe you should ask yourself if God made Adam and Eve in Paradise so they can become corrupt and die? Did God destroy His own crown-jewels intentionally? ... I think it makes more sense that we are the culprits of the destruction of our own blessings rather than God, Who, after, all gave them to us.

God created Adam and Eve fully knowing they would become corrupt and die, He gave them that ability (can become), so the answer to your first question is 'Yes'. (Is that bad? :)

I don't think God destroyed anything in this sense, as He is not the author of evil. God could have created us as perfection, but He didn't. He included the potential to sin. This was done for His perfect purpose, but it is nonetheless true. I would agree that we are to blame for our own sins.

I believe God's plan incorporates His perfect knowledge of our sins, AND His unwillingness, at times, to interfere with their commission. Of course, other times God prevents us from sinning through the Spirit.

2,175 posted on 01/30/2006 11:34:28 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: kosta50; HarleyD; All
[Re: God's plan] Now, I have seen many models of this. [Here is a model I wouldn't bet my life on, but nevertheless] it works for me: ...

It's funny you should say that because I have something similar, but on a completely different subject, the trinity. I have always "liked" the comparison to how we experience the sun. We all experience the sun's light, the sun's heat, and the sun's radiation. All three "are" the sun, but we experience them in different ways, and they have different purposes (functions). It seems like a neat little way to explain it, but I have read that the analogy is flawed. However, I've never found an explanation. Therefore, I've never used it in witnessing. Has anyone heard of this before?

2,176 posted on 01/31/2006 12:06:41 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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