Well, maybe originally, but it takes time to write things down (and make copies), and many events had not even happened yet so they couldn't have been written down. Do you believe that God mandated, regardless of whether He gave the Apostles advanced notice, that the scribes of the Bible would physically put pen to page? Did God cause the Bible to be written? You are writing as if you believe that the scribes of the (eventual) Bible made their own free will choices on what to include in their writings. Is this correct?
If I can find one phrase in the non-canonical writings of the Fathers, no matter how clearly that father's position is seen, I need to find a consensus among others to prove that this is the teaching of Christ. That is the difference between canonical scripture and oral (i.e. patristic, written to us) tradition.
I suppose it is human nature to give some merit to a view that is widely held. But does popularity make it correct? I fully admit that I start with the premise of giving "my guys" the benefit of the doubt. However, no man, nor group of men, gets my agreement if what they say doesn't pass the scriptural test as the Spirit leads me. That's why it is not the end of the world when I might disagree with my fellow churchgoers on some issues. But, if my pastor walked in some Sunday morning and announced that Jesus never claimed to be God, then I would be outta there.
As it is, the Protestant position is not to be more cautious in the study of the Fathers, but to ignore them unless something suits their agenda (which is, exclusively, fragments from St. Augustine).
In this case, our only agenda is the word of God.
I can recognize my Church in the writings of Justin Martyr, Clement, Ignatius or Irenaeus, -- can you?
No, I only recognize my church inasmuch as it is in Christ, not in the writings of any man.
But a sacrament has a defined meaning. ...
OK, all I meant was that we practice many similar things but we attach very different meanings to them. I just looked up "sacrament" and it appears to refer pretty much to "your" practices and interpretations. They are clearly defined.
Many, -- indeed not all, -- Protestant churches would not baptize a child before the age of reason. This deprives that child of the grace of baptism and endangers his soul should he die unbaptized.
I freely say that my church is one. :) I'm pretty sure that you all have said that an infant baptism performed in a Protestant church "CAN" be effective. However, what do Catholics say happens to victims of abortion, or to any child who dies before the age of reason (and living in a non-Christian family)? Are the salvations of those children really mainly determined by their parents?
Me: "We deny the necessity of man-driven works."
But then you deny scripture. When Christ commanded us to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, etc. He did not say anything about man-driven, He just said, do it.
I agree. Where we disagree is where the power for these works comes from. We just say that man does not produce good works from himself or his own autonomy. Every good work comes from God. He gets all the credit and all the glory for every good work. Whatever reward in heaven we might get from God is of course up to Him. I know that when I face judgment one thing I'm NOT going to say is: "But Lord, look at all the nice things I did..."
Also, no mature Protestant is looking for any excuse not to obey God (good works) in this world. Good works automatically flow from a regenerated heart.
But the movement away from parochial schools was a Protestant project, that has lead to the scandal of publik skulz of today.
I admit I have no idea to what you are referring here. Would you elaborate?
But this is the fundamental Protestant idea [finishing a prior thought, but leading into ...]. The notion that a bunch of lawyers and politicians can go and starve an innocent disabled woman to death because an electoral process of law has lead to it, -- I am referring to Terri Schiavo, of course, -- is a direct product of the mentality according to which everyone is his own pope and therefore entitled to autonomous moral judgement.
You are really trying to blame Protestantism for what happened to Terri Schiavo??? You are too funny. I did follow the case pretty closely because of how outraged I was by it. I do believe the judge who was involved was a long standing member of a Protestant church. Did you know that they KICKED HIM OUT because of this? A most proper cleansing. Do you think Catholic churches need to do any cleansing?
The one aspect of moral law on which you admit Protestantism has defected en masse (Lambeth Conference, 1930) is contraception. But this is the cornerstone of moral order that was destroyed by the left, -- and now, of course, the Church is waging a lone, despairing battle to steer at least its own flock away from that sin.
It's interesting that you bring up an Anglican conference as an example of Protestant error. I didn't think Anglicans were "exactly" Catholic, but I did think you all were in the "same family". I take it that you say that Anglicans, the Church of England, etc. are all fully Protestant and outside the "Church of Christ", as I have been told?
As to the contraception issue, I would fully agree that it led directly to Roe (Griswold v. Connecticut - 1965). There just isn't any argument. Both cases were travesties of justice and introduced us into the world of penumbras and emanations. Very sick. However, I can't agree with you that this is all the fault of Protestants. The entire society has decayed. (You must think that we have a lot of power over you in that we convinced such an overwhelming majority of Catholics to use birth control.) "We" did not. As I have said before to others, if Catholics voted (en masse) like African Americans, most of the social issues in this country, that we agree upon, would be solved.
Oh-oh, long post. I won't have time today, but I will respond later on.
God caused the Bible to be written in the same way God cause every other holy deed: hymns composed, liturgies put together, cathedrals built, etc. In all cases the human authors were moved by the Holy Ghost and produced a miracle. It is the Church operating through its councils, in its inerrancy, that selected the writings that are inspired and left others as a supplement.
In the case of the New Testament we have clear signals that at least some of the books are writings for private consumption. Luke writes his gospel to Theofilus, who has already received instruction in the living Word to confirm him in his knowledge (Luke 1:1-4). St. Paul frequently puts personal requests in his letters, as in 2 Timothy 4:9-22. He often refers to his oral teaching in his letters, as in 2 Corinthians 13:10; in 2 Thessalonians he expressly instructs the elders to hold fast to the oral teaching (2 Thessalionians 2:14).
But does popularity make it correct?
Ultimately, the test of correctness is whether a holy work brings people to Christ. If a particular writing -- for example, some rash passages from St. Augustine on free will that he later himself corrected, -- lead people to schism, then they cannot be correct, and they will not be reflective of the consensus of the fathers. Numerical popularity is a secondary effect.
I only recognize my church inasmuch as it is in Christ, not in the writings of any man
That is fine, but the writings of the fathers prove historical continuity of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
I'm pretty sure that you all have said that an infant baptism performed in a Protestant church "CAN" be effective. However, what do Catholics say happens to victims of abortion, or to any child who dies before the age of reason (and living in a non-Christian family)? Are the salvations of those children really mainly determined by their parents?
Protestant baptisms are valid (excepting some fringe denominations). In fact, in an emergency, anyone, even a non-Christian can perform valid baptism. A baptized child who dies goes to heaven automatically as he is cleansed of the Original Sin and did not commit any personal sin. An unbaptized child is at the mercy of Christ: we do not have a promise of his salvation, and likewise for unbaptized adult who has lead a righteous life. We only have a promise of salvation through baptism. The choice to be baptized must be present indeed: in the case of an adult, he has to wish to be baptized; in the case of the child, his parents must wish so.
Good works automatically flow from a regenerated heart
The Church teaches that works also assist in the regenerative work. One who does charity for some wrong reason, for example, because he mistakenly believes in salvation through works, will eventually be drawn to Christ and develop and strengthen his faith. It is true that works alone do not save, but neither faith alone saves.
elaborate?
Historically, the public school system in America was promulgated in 19 century in order to offset the influence the Catholic Church had in primary education. I can try and google up some articles on that later.
trying to blame Protestantism for what happened to Terri Schiavo???
Not for that incident, of course. I am aware fo the fact the the blind judge was excommunicated by his Baptist church. I mean merely that we in America have moved to the system of justice that is divorced from the moral law: ultimately, the voters decide what is moral and what is not, and they vote, and then the people they elected, or the people appointed by those who got democratically elected, make law and that law becomes morality. So, abortion is "moral" because it's legal, and marijuana is "immoral" because it is not legal. This pattern, that an individual can decide for himself what the Natural law in his heart says, follows the Protestant pattern where the individual can decide for himself what the Divine Law says. The apostolic churches believe that the Church is the deposit of Divine Law and is the only source of moral law, no matter what the democratic sentiment is at any moment.
Anglicans, the Church of England, etc. are all fully Protestant
They lost their apostolicity, yes. As to contraception, it is of course a wider fault than just the protestants, but the defection of Protestant churches made the struggle extremely difficult for Catholics.