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To: kosta50; annalex; Kolokotronis; Cronos; jo kus
We pray for the dead because they are in an unnatural state and we presume they are not comfortable.

I'm not sure I understand why being physically dead is an unnatural state. I know we don't get our new bodies until the end, but why is this existence unnatural? Also, why is there a presumption that these people are uncomfortable? Has Moses or David, or Mary! (or any other heavyweight from way back), been uncomfortable for thousands of years and counting?

We do not pray for the Saints. They pray for us.

Yes, but as is often said, you do pray "to" the saints. This is a major issue of contention between Catholics and Protestants. One thing I think I've learned on this thread is that your "prayer" is really a prayer for a prayer. You "pray" (in a request sense) to a saint for a "prayer" (in a worship sense) on your behalf. A pretty subtle distinction for the lay universe to handle. If I were Pope for a day, I would figure out another way to characterize this. :)

2,062 posted on 01/27/2006 7:34:36 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; Cronos; jo kus
I'm not sure I understand why being physically dead is an unnatural state

Death is not our natural state. Death is unnatural because God did not create us to be mortal; we became mortal through fault of our own.

When Adam and Eve were created, they were without sin and therefore immortal. The state humanity was created in is our "natural" state. Our fallen state is not our natural state, separated from God.

A bulb disconnected form the electrical source is a dead bulb. What good is a bulb if light doesn't shine through it? Adam and Eve were alive in God, Who is our sole source of existence. Separated from God, who is Life, our light went out, as we died unto sin.

Restoring manking to its original state is the only "natural" state of man. I don't know of any unnatural condition that is pleasant. Do you? If you do, then my example is bad, but it's late so I can't think of any other examples. Nonetheless, you get my drift.

Yes, but as is often said, you do pray "to" the saints. This is a major issue of contention between Catholics and Protestants

I know and I have to give it to you for having taken the time to learn the subtle difference. In fact your summary "prayer for a prayer" is quite good. Most Protestants, except Calvinists, admit that the Saints (in heaven, the "famous" ones) prey on our behalf along with angels. Most Protestants except some Anglicans do not accept prayers (as requests) to the saints. Yet, early Church records show that this was the practice and understanding of early Christianity.

I mean, if we can accept such complex things as the Holy Trinity, one essence and three persons, or Christ, fully God and fully Man, accepting requests for prayers is not such a foreign idea. Also, remember that Holy Trinity, as understood by the Church and accepted by most Protestants, as well as the duality of nature of Christ in one Person is not exactly word-by-word in the Scriptures either.

The Church really has no "hard evidence" to prove it, but then again +Paul tells us we believe things by faith and not by provable evidence. (cf Heb 11:1)

2,064 posted on 01/27/2006 7:56:59 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper
I know we don't get our new bodies until the end, but why is this existence unnatural?

The simplest answer is that we were not made to be souls without bodies. God created us as a body and soul. I think it is very unnatural to have anything removed from you — if we can imagine what it would be like if our heads were cut off and we continued to live. I just can't see how it is not something terryfying, and unnatural.

2,068 posted on 01/27/2006 8:27:01 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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