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To: kosta50; annalex; Kolokotronis; Cronos; jo kus
The meaning of this Community involved the Saints who are in heaven (i.e. those who have achieved theolsis, or likeness of Christ; that is real saints, not the "holies" who share in faith and sacraments on earth; I think the Protestants refer to themselves as saints or the divines -- Calvinists and lutherans respectively).

Yes, we believe the Biblical meaning of "saint" is any saved person. Such as in this passage:

Rom. 8:26-27 : "26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

From the Catholic or Orthodox view, why would the Spirit need to intercede for a saint? Aren't all saints already purified, and thus avoid purgatory? Also, this passage clearly refers to physically living people. For Catholics, I thought that for anyone to become a recognized saint, he or she had to first be physically dead, and then canonized by the Church.

2,018 posted on 01/26/2006 6:15:46 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
From the Catholic or Orthodox view, why would the Spirit need to intercede for a saint? Aren't all saints already purified, and thus avoid purgatory? Also, this passage clearly refers to physically living people. For Catholics, I thought that for anyone to become a recognized saint, he or she had to first be physically dead, and then canonized by the Church.

No one intercedes for those in heaven. Those in heaven can intercede for others, though. In Romans, the Spirit is interceding for those who are not in heaven yet. Jesus desires that the Kingdom of God is made present to all men of all time. Thus, He continues to intercede for them, not those who already have the Kingdom fully within them. A person doesn't have to be a cannonized saint to be in heaven. Cannonized saints are "officially" recognized for the purposes of the Liturgy, but we are encouraged to ask the prayers of any saint whom we believe has been saved (and is in Purgatory or Heaven).

Regards

2,019 posted on 01/26/2006 6:28:45 AM PST by jo kus
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; Cronos; jo kus
We pray for the dead because they are in an unnatural state and we presume they are not comfortable. Our prayers are supplications for spiritual comfort for those who are separated from their bodies. It is no different than praying for someone who has just lost something very dear and very close.

We do not pray for the Saints. They pray for us. The Saints are people who have achieved greater likeness to Christ than we have, so it is logical for them to pray for us to succeed than the other way around.

2,027 posted on 01/26/2006 2:48:38 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Cronos; annalex; jo kus
FK, at the risk of making this a longer read than I wanted, I think this will give you a better idera of how the Orthodox see their connection with God and where freedom comes in.

Hope this helps shed some light on our perspective and how it contrasts with Protestant and Catholic beliefs, if any.

2,029 posted on 01/26/2006 3:23:08 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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