”…it seems my most recent post might be taken to have strayed into Semi-Pelagianism. Specifically, my example regarding the joule necessary to move man to act.
This went off the beaten path but I’m certainly not going to make an issue about it. I’ve done the same thing. At least you didn’t have to explain it for 150+ posts. :O)
Where we disagree, I beleive, is when you seem to imply that God also ordains man's evil actions, as well. God predestines the elect, not the reprobate. I would say that God doesn’t do anything with the reprobates. He simply passes over them. God uses them to affect His will but He doesn’t actively call them out as He does the elect. There is no greater example of this in scripture than the nation of Israel versus Egypt. It is a type of the way God works. Israel was sojourners in Egypt. God called Israel out of Egypt. He didn’t make a blanket call to everyone in Egypt so that individuals could pick and choose. He specifically called Israel out and He used the Egyptians to affect His calling.
Likewise, God’s elect are sojourners in this corrupted world. God calls the true Israel out of the world. He uses those of this world, both the elect and reprobate, to affect His calling.
Not only do we not believe that some are predestined to evil by the divine power, but if there are any who wish to believe such an enormity, we with great abhorrence anathematise them (hear that, Calvin?).
From the Westminster Confessions – God’s Eternal Decreeds VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]
VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17]
VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]
Scriptural footnotes
[12] 1PE 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. EPH 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 2TH 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
[13] 1TH 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. TIT 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[14] ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. EPH 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. 2TH 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
[15] 1PE 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[16] JOH 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. ROM 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. JOH 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 1JO 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
[17] MAT 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. ROM 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. 2TI 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. JUD 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 1PE 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
[18] ROM 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! DEU 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
[19] 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
[20] EPH 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[21] ROM 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. ROM 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. LUK 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
At least you didn’t have to explain it for 150+ posts. :O) Whew! And I am sure you are glad to hear that :-)
I would say that God doesn’t do anything with the reprobates. He simply passes over them. God uses them to affect His will but He doesn’t actively call them out as He does the elect.
Well that is pretty much what Catholics believe on the subject, at least St. Augustine and St. Thomas, who have formed so much of Catholic theology. I believe it is "allowed" for a Catholic to follow Molina, who is closer to understanding that God's foreknowledge sees man's reaction, which places more responsibility on man.
He didn’t make a blanket call to everyone in Egypt so that individuals could pick and choose. He specifically called Israel out and He used the Egyptians to affect His calling.
I wonder if EVERY Israelite placed the blood on the lintels of their doors... I suppose we could limit those who did as the "spiritual" Jews, such as Paul notes in Romans. Like I said before, I don't know if we will ever understand how God and us interact, since Scripture details BOTH God's ordinance and man's free will to choose good and evil. Perhaps we can say that ONLY a man touched by the Spirit can even choose (in other words, Moses' words in Deuteronomy to the Jews were not addressed to heathens, even indirectly) one or the other. But it is clear that we cannot come to God alone, nor do anything of eternal merit without Him. To balance this, we will be judged on what we do... I think St. Augustine says that God wills to judge His creatures based on His own gifts. Who can know God's ways...
The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.
The certainty of eternal election? Beware, he who thinks he stands firm, lest he fall... The Church teaches that an individual cannot know he is of the elect - although we can have signs of the possibility through our lives. The fact of the matter is that God will do what He does. The certainty of election takes away God's free will.
Regards