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To: annalex; Gamecock
There is no difference in how God appealed to Cain and to Jonah. He called both to do His will; Jonah hesitated and agreed; Cain did not agree. Similarly, Eve and Mary both listened, hesitated, then one agreed to do God's will and the other did not.

I find nothing in scripture that shows anyone agreeing to anything. God tells people what is going to happen and people accept (or deny) what will happen. It always happens just the way God said whatever we say.

Jonah wasn't given much of a choice which many are refusing to admit-("Fish belly, Nineveh, fish belly, Nineveh, fish belly, Nineveh. Hmmmm which to choose?"). Cain wasn't given a choice at all. God just make a blanket statement to Cain that sin was "crouching at his door". Cain still killed Able his brother. Since God appoints the time for us to die, one has to conclude this was the time appointed for Able to die. God not only knew when Able would die, He also knew how he would die and allowed Able to die in such a fashion. Cain was ordained to bring about Able's death although that doesn't make what Cain did right or excuse him. God controlled the events-not man.

Since there were only these two individuals it is clear to see the workings of God. The more people and interaction the greater the permutations become similar chaos theory where a butterfly beats its wings in South America causing a tornado in Texas. Instead I would call it Intelligent Design. It is God who directs the entire universe according to His will.

Cain never said he was sorry, never asked forgiveness, and never went to his parents to have them intercede for him with the Lord. Cain simply focused on his own selfish concerns and left. That is the true nature of man; vile and contemptible. There is no "spark" of goodness.

I don’t know of any “decision” by Eve. Scripture states that Eve was deceived (2 Cor 11:3, 1 Tim 2:14); not that she made a “decision”. Adam was the one who “freely” took of the fruit as ordained by God and it is because of Adam that the race died; not Eve who actually sinned first. Less we think too harshly of Eve, Paul warns Christians in a number of places not to be deceived. Although one can be deceived into sinning it doesn’t excuse us. But deception is far different than making a choice.

Mary is similar to everyone else who has an angel popped in on them. The angel says, “You will….(fill in the blank)” and people says, “Sounds great to me.”. I don’t consider that an exercise of choice.

1,983 posted on 01/25/2006 5:09:01 AM PST by HarleyD (Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way? - Pro 20:24)
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To: HarleyD; Gamecock
I find nothing in scripture that shows anyone agreeing to anything. God tells people what is going to happen and people accept (or deny) what will happen. It always happens just the way God said whatever we say.

Well, let's test that theory.

Eve

I don’t know of any “decision” by Eve

1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? 2 And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. 4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. 5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat.

(Genesis 3)

Eve knew the commandment of God, and evidently was disposed to agree with it at the beginning, since the serpent had to persuade her otherwise. She used her senses and listened to the serpent, changed her mind, and agreed with the serpent, and therefore disagreed with God. She is shown to be able to go either way, and she made a choice between the two, a decision. Neither God or the serpent were forcing her: God did not interfere and the serpent is said to be subtle and indeed uses nothing but persuasion. (I agree that the sin is properly Adam's, but the point is that Eve is shown exercising free choice, while regarding Adam we can only assume that, -- surely Eve did not force him to eat the fruit).

Cain

Cain wasn't given a choice at all. God just make a blanket statement to Cain that sin was "crouching at his door". Cain still killed Able his brother. Since God appoints the time for us to die, one has to conclude this was the time appointed for Able to die. God not only knew when Able would die, He also knew how he would die and allowed Able to die in such a fashion. Cain was ordained to bring about Able's death although that doesn't make what Cain did right or excuse him. God controlled the events-not man.
5 But to Cain and his offerings he had no respect: and Cain was exceedingly angry, and his countenance fell. 6 And the Lord said to him: Why art thou angry? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou do well, shalt thou not receive? but if ill, shall not sin forthwith be present at the door? but the lust thereof shall be under thee, and thou shalt have dominion over it. 8 And Cain said to Abel his brother: Let us go forth abroad. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and slew him. 9 And the Lord said to Cain: Where is thy brother Abel? And he answered, I know not: am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said to him: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth to me from the earth.

(Genesis 4)

Again, you speculate, and contradict the scripture. The scripture shows that God reasons with Cain, encourages him to do better next time, warns about sin, and urges him to have dominion over sin (verse 7). This is not just choice, but a positive encouragement to do well. The fact that Cain, not God is in control is underscored by verses 9 and 10 where God asks Cain what did he do, as if not knowing.

Jonas

Jonah wasn't given much of a choice

1 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonas the son of Amathi, saying: 2 Arise, and go to Ninive the great city, and preach in it: for the wickedness thereof is come up before me. 3 And Jonas rose up to flee into Tharsis from the face of the Lord, and he went down to Joppe, and found a ship going to Tharsis: and he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them to Tharsis from the face of the Lord. 4 But the Lord sent a great wind into the sea: and a great tempest was raised in the sea, and the ship was in danger to be broken.

(Jonas 1)

Here is choice number one: Jonah flees from the face of God. Does God send a tornado to deposit him in Nineveh like Dorothy and Toto? No, God gives him another chance to exercise free will.
12 And he said to them: Take me up, and cast me into the sea, and the sea shall be calm to you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.

(Jonas 1)

Choice number two: Jonas repents and chooses to die. His attempted martyrdom converts pagans. Lord used Jonas' disobedience for the greater good.
1 Now the Lord prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonas: and Jonas was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. 2 And Jonas prayed to the Lord his God out of the belly of the fish. [...] 7 I went down to the lowest parts of the mountains: the bars of the earth have shut me up for ever: and thou wilt bring up my life from corruption, O Lord my God. [...] 10 But I with the voice of praise will sacrifice to thee: I will pay whatsoever I have vowed for my salvation to the Lord. 11 And the Lord spoke to the fish: and it vomited out Jonas upon the dry land.

(Jonas 2)

The fish here is a rescue boat. Contrary to what you say, the fish is not shown as an instrument of torture and coercion, for Jonah is shown happy to be in it. Having been rescued, Jonah freely offered a prayer of hope and thanksgiving and God responded by making the fish deliver Jonah safely.
1 And the word of the Lord came to Jonas the second time, saying: 2 Arise, and go to Ninive the great city: and preach in it the preaching that I bid thee. 3 And Jonas arose, and went to Ninive, according to the word of the Lord:

(Jonas 3)

The connection between the episode at sea and the commission to preach at Nineveh is broken here, as God asks a second time. We understand that Jonah's penance at sea reformed him, but we do not see anyone but Jonah in control over the decision to obey God the second time around. Note, as I said earlier, that the fish did not deliver Jonah to Nineveh, and a second chance to refuse to go was given him.

Blessed Mary

Mary is similar to everyone else who has an angel popped in on them. The angel says, “You will….(fill in the blank)” and people says, “Sounds great to me.”. I don’t consider that an exercise of choice.

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: 37 Because no word shall be impossible with God. 38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

(Luke 1)

First, Mary is troubled because she is saluted as royalty, by an angel, no less. By your logic this is the time when we say "Sounds great to me" and shut up. You are perhaps right, but then this is why we are sinners and she is not. God is telling her that she will carry his Son, and her response is -- are you ready for this? -- "Prove it". Note that this exactly echoes, in reverse, Eve's behavior, who also needed proof before consenting to the serpent. Mary here is righteously prudent not willing to repeat Eve's mistake.

Next, the proof is given, and Mary consents: "be it done to me according to thy word". Hers is to be a valid marriage to the Holy Ghost, and free consent is essential for marriage. No free will, no savior.

1,995 posted on 01/25/2006 4:56:20 PM PST by annalex
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