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To: Forest Keeper
Does God move people to pray to not Him, but rather to a dead person for intercession between the one who is praying and God?

Apparently he does. This is, I speculate, why. The saints are people we can become ourselves. We cannot become the Third Person of the Trinity. For examples, many saints are martyrs for the faith. The martyrdom os St. Stephen is described in the Acts; other, numerous cases are known from solid historical records, and some from tradition. Other saints had extreme intellectual fortitude of conviction and knowledge, or extreme strength of character. But these are qualities we can develop ourselves. As we focus a prayer on a Christian martyr, for example, we make his example vibrant for us in our own situation.

A classic intercessory prayer is Hail Mary:

Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with you
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus

Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and in the hour of our death
Amen

What is happening here? First we honor Mary as mother of our Lord and the divinely chosen to bring Him forth. We marvel over the miracle of Incarnation, and we praise Jesus. This allows us to contemplate moments in our life where we had agreed to follow God's will like Mary did; or perhaps the moments that we regret when we did not. The entire sections from the Gospel of Luke, the Annunciation and the Visitation, are compressed in the first part of the prayer (less so if you are only familiar with the Protestant translations that all mangle Luke 1:28). The second part is intercessory. In it we recall that as Christ was dying on the cross he asked Mary to adopt his beloved disciple St. John the Theologian. Being disciples of Christ ourselves, we place ourselves in the person of St. John and consider ourselves children of Mary. We imagine our own death an ask her to be present at the time of our death just like she was present at the time of Christ's death. We fear that at that moment, like the Evil Thief, we would fail to turn to Christ, perhaps wracked with pain. We know that we want to be like the Good Thief, and we ask Mary to ask Christ to have mercy for our sins. The most memorable scenes from two gospels, the story of the Incarnation and the Good Friday, race through our mind as we say Hail Mary. It is a profound experience.

it is not even clear that Mary fully knew the divinity of Jesus at that time because of her language, and also that it may not have been an intercession by Mary at all.

Mary knew the divinity of Jesus because the archangel told her. We can of course speculate that she merely observed the lack of wine, rather than was asked for help, but even so she still interceded, moved by a human want. It is significant that her intercession did not take a form of a command, but rather left it to her Son to exercise -- or not -- His divine power. This is what any intercession of a saint is, -- a humble request for help, tha thumility illustrated by the evangelist by meek and faith-filled "do as He tells you". In case you are wondering if she even meant her remark to be a request, evidently it was understood as a request by Jesus, and indeed in a context of a wedding running out of wine is the worst embarrassment, so not much needed to be said.

Is there a Church-decreed structural difference along this line in how you pray to a saint and how you pray to God directly?

A good form is to begin and end the prayers with "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit". I don't know if there is any difference depending on the content. A short prayer, for example, a single Hail Mary or "Christ have mercy" would often be said without the necessary preambles. I don't think there is any mandated form of prayer, generally, although as you know Catholics are big on memorized and poeticized prayers, such as the Rosary.

The whole thing was Jesus' answer to Peter's question of how often should he forgive. I don't see how a purgatory extension is reasonably drawn here.

The answer to the question is short, "seventy times seven". The parable is preceded by "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who ..., etc.", so it is clear that it gives us an extensive explanation about the Kingdom of Heaven.

He didn't show any sort of faith, how is this salvation?

To humbly ask for mercy is the foundation of faith. He also promised to pay back the debt, that is to repent. He did all the essentials.

why do you think the second condemnation was only temporary?

Because the parable concludes (Matthew 18:34) "And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt". It expressly says that the punishment was temporary. Also, in v. 25 repayment is made a part of the condemnation, and in v. 26 it is promised. The fact that the payment is to be made out of prison indicates that the time to make material payments in goods and money is past, and this time the payment is made through suffering.

It is of course true that the parable teaches forgiveness, but the elaborate story with the debtor being called two times, and two punishments being meted out, tells us much more than verse 22, "I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times" would have told alone.

1,904 posted on 01/23/2006 6:02:40 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Dahlseide; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; xzins; RnMomof7; Gamecock
...we ask Mary to ask Christ to have mercy for our sins.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- 1 Timothy 2:5

There is not "one God" among several gods. There is not "one mediator" among several mediators.

One God. One mediator, Jesus Christ.

1,912 posted on 01/23/2006 11:55:20 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (an ambassador in bonds)
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To: annalex
Thank you for the prayer example and your explanation of its meaning.

[About the 'Hail Mary' prayer:] We imagine our own death and ask her to be present at the time of our death just like she was present at the time of Christ's death. We fear that at that moment, like the Evil Thief, we would fail to turn to Christ, perhaps wracked with pain. We know that we want to be like the Good Thief, and we ask Mary to ask Christ to have mercy for our sins.

I suppose I still can't get passed the idea of "Why not just go to the source?" That's what the good thief did. I know we are not going to talk each other out of anything, but I think I understand better what you are talking about now, so thank you again. I was glad to see the petition/worship distinction.

I don't think there is any mandated form of prayer, generally, although as you know Catholics are big on memorized and poeticized prayers, such as the Rosary.

I've noticed that, and I've never argued that it is a bad thing. How does one argue against the Lord's Prayer? :)

To humbly ask for mercy is the foundation of faith. He also promised to pay back the debt, that is to repent. He [the unmerciful debtor] did all the essentials.

I thought paying the debt is what Christ did on the cross. (For Catholic salvation, do humans need to pay a debt?) Also, he did not actually pay back the debt, he only promised to, so how can this be true repentance?

1,967 posted on 01/24/2006 7:52:31 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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