[jo kus]

There are no exceptions. Everyone is saved exactly the same way. God doesn't make exceptions and He shows no partiality. If God can make an exception for Paul why not Joe?

God has shown that He saves people through other people. Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles, and your pastor. As a result, God has different plans for different people. Remember Eph 4:11-12: He {God} gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints in the work of the ministry. As a result, some will be called in a special way. But really, God has formed them people in the womb of their mother, such as Jeremiah. They are "made" in such a way that their free will chooses God. Even Jeremiah was given the choice.

God wants everyone saved doesn't He? Isn't that what people tell me? Then all He needs to do is zap Joe and be done with it

God wants all men saved AND He wants all men to freely come to Him. Apparently, God condescends to give us the ability to choose or reject Him - since we are given a choice, in Scripture, of choosing the good or the evil. If God desires that men be free, then apparently some will reject Him.

It's a little crazy for Him to zap Paul to preach to Joe in hopes that Joe will accept the gospel.

Why? Isn't that exactly how the Gospel went out to the world? Jesus told His Apostles to preach what He had taught them - and preach it to the world. Why didn't God just "zap" it into our beings? Apparently, that was not God's ways. He loves us and chooses to allow us to participate in His work of redeeming others.

God does not give anything including His grace away in vain. To assume so is to say that God is limited in either His knowledge or abilities.

Again, you are forgeting the choice that God has made to give man free will to choose or reject God. Paul himself says that God's grace can be given in vain. The parable of the Sower and the Seed implies that some of God's Word (seed) falls in vain. God's graces fall on the wicked and the good - but are the wicked responsive? No, there are too many Scriptures that teach that God has given man a choice to choose good or evil. To obey the Commandments or not.

That being said, it is incumbent on us to understand God's nature. In scripture God demands that we have a right understanding of Him and that we know the right way to worship Him. After all He spent a great deal of time writing a book for us about Himself. Christians shouldn't just dismiss theological points or scripture without careful consideration

I agree, but I wonder how much even Mary knew about her Son's Divinity and Nature. There is a major school of thought in Christianity called the "negative way", big esp. in the East, that says we can know more about what God is NOT then what God IS. In the end, it is only in heaven when we will see God as He is. And while God "wrote" Scriptures through men, it is clear that the Scriptures are not self-interpretative. In this case, there is room for flexibility here. I am not sure if it is important to know the exact relationship between God and myself when I do action "x", as long as I know I can't do it alone AND that I am certainly involved in making the decision to accept or decline God's promptings of grace.

That is the typical response. It isn't a mystery if people are willing to do away with their "free will" paradigm.

Wonderful. However, the fact of the matter remains that there are numerous verses from Scriptures that tell us that God allows man to choose. God JUDGES us based on HOW we choose. God lays before us two ways. We choose. Certainly, He knows what we will choose. But this doesn't mean He pushes us down that road. Your paradigm is dangerous in that it makes God the creator of evil in the world. Only a free willed being can commit an evil act that warrants punishment. Thus, how is man evil if he has not free will? If man is not responsible for His actions whatsoever - why does God judge men based on what He DOES?

God has given us our "free will" to choose between "good and evil". It was a lie back then. It is a lie now.

Is God responsible for Adam and Eve's disobedience? Or did He just foresee it? Your anthropology makes a distinction between Adam and the rest of man to an extreme degree. But at what point does the Scripture say that man lost his free will in Genesis 3?

Regards

[HarleyD]

God has shown that He saves people through other people. Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles, and your pastor.

It is man's privilege to be the transmitter of God's word but I wouldn't make the above claim. Some of the Prophets God came to directly like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and John the Baptist. Moses heard God's word through a burning bush-not a person. Abraham just heard a voice. You will also recall that our Lord Jesus personally went up to some of the Apostles such as Peter, John, James and Matthew and said, "Come, follow me". They dropped everything and followed. They didn't say, "Let me think about this."

If God wants people to follow Him, He will go to them in whatever way He decides to take be that through someone or acting on His own accord. But it is always God acting just as He did with Nathanael.

Joh 1:48 Nathanael *said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."

We may have the privilege of leading someone to Christ but it is God who "sees" us.

They are "made" in such a way that their free will chooses God. Even Jeremiah was given the choice.

If they are made in such a way that their free will chooses God, why doesn't God make everyone in that same way?

God wants all men saved AND He wants all men to freely come to Him.

This contradicts what you just said about Jeremiah.

Why didn't God just "zap" it into our beings? Apparently, that was not God's ways. He loves us and chooses to allow us to participate in His work of redeeming others.

On the contrary, it is precisely God's way. He does zap everyone that He so chooses. He didn't make an exception for Paul and ignored Joe. Paul was elect. Joe was not. If God wanted Joe, then God would go up to Joe and say, "Come follow me" and Joe would drop everything he was doing and follow. That's the way it works. God ordains our steps.