[jo kus]

IF God takes specific action to save a particular person it WILL happen.

Scripture is clear that grace can be given in vain. It does NOT follow that God's graces will ALWAYS bring a man to be righteous. Otherwise, why do saved people sin? Mentioning Paul, the exception, does not disprove the norm. And even Paul STILL had to battle with sin. God's graces SAVED Paul, but they did not inexorably force him to always follow God's will. The fact that even Paul sinned, I believe, is proof enough to show that God's graces to do a specific action - to be loving to my brother today - are not always efficacious.

There is no doubt we agree that it is God who is the driving force behind any good we do. We are not Semi-Pelagians. Even after we are "saved" by Baptism, we STILL require God's actual grace to abide in His love in EVERY good action that we potentially can do. That we fail is evidence that man's free will to choose good or evil exists even AFTER our regeneration.

There is not ONE person saved who God did not want saved. There is not ONE person lost that God cannot save if He set His mind to it.

Of course. Having free will does not take away anything from God's power and freedom.

Our differences are hair breath in length but the theological implications are profoundly significant.

Probably what is more important is how our beliefs translate into action. If we do not love, it doesn't matter what we believe on this subject. We aren't going to heaven because of our knowledge on this subject. Frankly, I consider this a mystery. Who can say how God's graces and man's freedom interact on a given specific situation.

Regards

[HarleyD]

Scripture is clear that grace can be given in vain. It does NOT follow that God's graces will ALWAYS bring a man to be righteous. Otherwise, why do saved people sin? Mentioning Paul, the exception, does not disprove the norm.

There are no exceptions. Everyone is saved exactly the same way. God doesn't make exceptions and He shows no partiality. If God can make an exception for Paul why not Joe? God wants everyone saved doesn't He? Isn't that what people tell me? Then all He needs to do is zap Joe and be done with it. It's a little crazy for Him to zap Paul to preach to Joe in hopes that Joe will accept the gospel. If Joe refuse well....nice try Paul.

God does not give anything including His grace away in vain. To assume so is to say that God is limited in either His knowledge or abilities.

Saved people sin simply because we are not free from the flesh. We spiritually want to do what is right, we physically fail from time to time.

Probably what is more important is how our beliefs translate into action. If we do not love, it doesn't matter what we believe on this subject. We aren't going to heaven because of our knowledge on this subject.

Trust me when I say it would give me no greater satisfaction than to simply be commenting on the latest Christian movie then to sit here typing over and over, "God is sovereign. Free will is a fallacy." It doesn't stop us from going to heaven and the way I look at it God has commanded us to pray for wisdom, knowledge and understanding. At the risk of sounding impertinent, if He hasn't opened our eyes to a particular point then there is a reason for it. He has commanded Christians to pray for wisdom. Whether He has so given us the will to do so is a different story. (You didn't think I go beyond five posts without bring Augustine into this somehow now did you.) :O)

That being said, it is incumbent on us to understand God's nature. In scripture God demands that we have a right understanding of Him and that we know the right way to worship Him. After all He spent a great deal of time writing a book for us about Himself. Christians shouldn't just dismiss theological points or scripture without careful consideration. Mary, we read "treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart" (Luke 2:19)

Frankly, I consider this a mystery.

That is the typical response. It isn't a mystery if people are willing to do away with their "free will" paradigm. Scriptures says, "Man's steps are ordained by the Lord." What exactly is a mystery to that statement. What is a mystery is why people will hold onto this "free will" idea.

Quite frankly, it's the same lie in the garden that we will know "good and evil". Isn't that what this is? God has given us our "free will" to choose between "good and evil". It was a lie back then. It is a lie now.