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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Cronos
That is fine if that is the Catholic position, but scripture does not appear to support it

You are reading the Bible but not asking yourself what you are reading. The Bible speaks of life everlasting. The whole concept of Christ's resurrection is that there is life after physical death, that our souls will be reunited with our new and restored bodies once again at the Second Coming.

We therefore believe, based on what the Bible says, that we are judged upon physical death immediately (cf Heb 9:27), and that those who died in flesh are alive in spirit and that those are destined to be saved at the Last Judgment continue to pray in the heavenly church, because they prayed in church on earth. As such it is equally justified to say "Brethren, pray for us (1 Thess 5:25) to those on earth as to those in heaven.

As Christians we believe that collective prayers are beneficial and we ask of the most reverend of spirits in heaven to pray to God on our behalf. There is Scriptural evidence for this too: "This is Jeremiah, the prophet of God, who loves the brothers, who prays fervently for the people and the holy city." {2 Macc 15:14, Septuagint), but your redacted Bible does not contain 2 Maccabees, so no wonder you don't know.

There is also biblical reference to angelic intercession (Zech 1:12-13).

1,842 posted on 01/21/2006 9:07:58 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
The Bible speaks of life everlasting. The whole concept of Christ's resurrection is that there is life after physical death, that our souls will be reunited with our new and restored bodies once again at the Second Coming.

If you meant this as an example of your comment: "You are reading the Bible but not asking yourself what you are reading.", then you missed because I agree.

We therefore believe, based on what the Bible says, that we are judged upon physical death immediately (cf Heb 9:27), and that those who died in flesh are alive in spirit and that those are destined to be saved at the Last Judgment continue to pray in the heavenly church, because they prayed in church on earth.

With all due respect, this paragraph is completely misleading. First, you say that "based on what the Bible says", that we are judged upon physical death immediately, but then you add "based on what the Bible says", that suddenly the dead are floating around in the spirit world, waiting to take our calls, and are fully willing to continue praying for us. All of this is solely through the logic that they prayed while on earth. Will I have a lawnmower in Heaven, I had one on earth? If you want to believe in this then more power to you, but you cannot pass it off as being "based on what the Bible says" as you tried to do. If the Bible really supports this idea, I'd love to take a look, but if it is really tradition then I'll deal with it as tradition.

... but your redacted Bible does not contain 2 Maccabees, so no wonder you don't know.

I admit that I do not recognize 2 Maccabees as authority, and I have no idea how many other ancient texts you would put on a par with the writings in my Bible.

There is also biblical reference to angelic intercession (Zech 1:12-13).

You seem to have left out the little part that this was a vision of Zechariah. In this same vision there were talking horses who roamed the earth. These horses reported back to the angel of the Lord:

[Zech 1]: "11 And they reported to the angel of the LORD, who was standing among the myrtle trees, "We have gone throughout the earth and found the whole world at rest and in peace. 12 Then the angel of the LORD said, "LORD Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these seventy years?" 13 So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who talked with me. "

Again, these were the horses talking in the vision. At that time the angel (v. 12) asked of God. Notice there was no prompting whatsoever from Zechariah at all. No request. No beseeching. No nothing. This was not an intercession in the sense we have been discussing. This was an intercession in some kind of sense that the HS does it, without being asked. You don't think there was any symbolism in the vision with talking horses who roamed the whole earth?

1,882 posted on 01/23/2006 5:53:58 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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